zamario
zamario
Hello everyone,
I've been reading the forum for some time but this is my first post here.
I have been an avid Leica user for nearly twenty years and my M6 is the best camera I could dream to have.
I mainly shoot people in different occasion, always with available light, often in very light conditions and during long trips and the M6 have given me everything I wanted, allowing me to shoot in every occasion always delivering the best I could sort out of the film.
I went digital with a Canon 5D, which I find excellent, but I missed the compactness and ability to put my in contact with the subject of the M6, so I decided to make the jump to the M8 in January, expecting to find the same allround qualities of the M6.
Unfortunately I didn't.
Yes, lens quality and compactness are there, but anything new in the camera is disappointing, and I would say unacceptable (in my humble opinion) for a camera that's branded Leica and that is sold at that price level.
First big disappointment is the sensor: even though I am not a fan of noisless images I find images shot over 640 ISO nearly unusable.
White management is just crazy: maybe it is my camera but I find differences (heavy differences in color balancing) even in two consecutive shots with exactly the same conditions.
The shutter is nothing near what it used to be: noticeably noisy and vibration inducing: with the M6 I could easily shoot at 1/4 without any problems, here even at 1/30 I am afraid of having unwanted blurred pictures.
I personally find focusing trickier, probably due to the backfocusing issues with some lenses.
Add all this to the fact that the 1.3 cropping factor obliges you to use shorter lenses to have the same results and that if you are used to a 35mm you have to go to a 28, loosing at least one stop of maximum speed, you will see that shooting in low light conditions become a very difficult situation, while (for my personal experience) it was the strenght of the M6.
There are also some practicalities that are disappointing:
Battery duration is deceiving: I can barely shoot some 200/250 raw images without using the LCD. It may seem much, but it is not if you are travelling in remote places where access to energy is not granted every day.
The capacity of accepted SD cards is limited to 2GB. I know there are a few 4GB cards accepted, but I couldn't find them on the market. If you shoot Raw this means around 180 images, so a pack of cards (or a backup system) to be brough in a long trip.
It is true that in the old days you had to bring packs of films with you, but seeing what other manufacturer are doing (I have the example of the 5D which battery is incredibly longlasting and it easily accepts high capacity cards) it is really hard to understand the reason of these limitations
Also (and I understand it is a question of tastes) I personally find questionable the choiche of the center average light metering, compared with the M6 semi spot which allowed me a much greater control on exposure.
Now: I still use my M8 for photographying people as I prefer the rangefinder "philosophy", but I really feel somewhat cheated by the brand: beside the "old" qualities of the M system (rangefinder and lenses) anything new has been largely under the expectations.
If I had known what I know today I would not buy this camera again. And selling it today, with some little use marks and with the Leica "buy back" program which has made it less expensive than when I purchased it, would make me lose quite a lot of money, making the experience even more painful.
I was tought by my marketing teacher that a Brand is a promise. I truly don't feel Leica kept its word.
I've been reading the forum for some time but this is my first post here.
I have been an avid Leica user for nearly twenty years and my M6 is the best camera I could dream to have.
I mainly shoot people in different occasion, always with available light, often in very light conditions and during long trips and the M6 have given me everything I wanted, allowing me to shoot in every occasion always delivering the best I could sort out of the film.
I went digital with a Canon 5D, which I find excellent, but I missed the compactness and ability to put my in contact with the subject of the M6, so I decided to make the jump to the M8 in January, expecting to find the same allround qualities of the M6.
Unfortunately I didn't.
Yes, lens quality and compactness are there, but anything new in the camera is disappointing, and I would say unacceptable (in my humble opinion) for a camera that's branded Leica and that is sold at that price level.
First big disappointment is the sensor: even though I am not a fan of noisless images I find images shot over 640 ISO nearly unusable.
White management is just crazy: maybe it is my camera but I find differences (heavy differences in color balancing) even in two consecutive shots with exactly the same conditions.
The shutter is nothing near what it used to be: noticeably noisy and vibration inducing: with the M6 I could easily shoot at 1/4 without any problems, here even at 1/30 I am afraid of having unwanted blurred pictures.
I personally find focusing trickier, probably due to the backfocusing issues with some lenses.
Add all this to the fact that the 1.3 cropping factor obliges you to use shorter lenses to have the same results and that if you are used to a 35mm you have to go to a 28, loosing at least one stop of maximum speed, you will see that shooting in low light conditions become a very difficult situation, while (for my personal experience) it was the strenght of the M6.
There are also some practicalities that are disappointing:
Battery duration is deceiving: I can barely shoot some 200/250 raw images without using the LCD. It may seem much, but it is not if you are travelling in remote places where access to energy is not granted every day.
The capacity of accepted SD cards is limited to 2GB. I know there are a few 4GB cards accepted, but I couldn't find them on the market. If you shoot Raw this means around 180 images, so a pack of cards (or a backup system) to be brough in a long trip.
It is true that in the old days you had to bring packs of films with you, but seeing what other manufacturer are doing (I have the example of the 5D which battery is incredibly longlasting and it easily accepts high capacity cards) it is really hard to understand the reason of these limitations
Also (and I understand it is a question of tastes) I personally find questionable the choiche of the center average light metering, compared with the M6 semi spot which allowed me a much greater control on exposure.
Now: I still use my M8 for photographying people as I prefer the rangefinder "philosophy", but I really feel somewhat cheated by the brand: beside the "old" qualities of the M system (rangefinder and lenses) anything new has been largely under the expectations.
If I had known what I know today I would not buy this camera again. And selling it today, with some little use marks and with the Leica "buy back" program which has made it less expensive than when I purchased it, would make me lose quite a lot of money, making the experience even more painful.
I was tought by my marketing teacher that a Brand is a promise. I truly don't feel Leica kept its word.
tmfabian
I met a man once...
HA! HA!
tell me, did you spend your own time writing that, or did you just copy and paste the generic "i hate the m8" article?
+1
/fail
tell me, did you spend your own time writing that, or did you just copy and paste the generic "i hate the m8" article?
+1
/fail
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I think the Kodak Pro 14n produces better, sharper images than the newer SLR/n, and I have both.
If you take the 14n out on a bright, cloudy day, the images it produces at ISO 80 or ISO 160 are better than any full frame DSLR on the market today.
It's a pity Kodak stuck their sensor in a consumer Nikon body, then abandoned the DSLR business. I think they would have had a nice large niche market for people who are capable of using the camera properly.
Don't get me started on the Kodak DSLR's. I could write a book. BAD firmware and RAW software crippled this camera when it was new, and it never reached its potential.
Those who have a 14n and even an SLR/n are lucky.
If you take the 14n out on a bright, cloudy day, the images it produces at ISO 80 or ISO 160 are better than any full frame DSLR on the market today.
It's a pity Kodak stuck their sensor in a consumer Nikon body, then abandoned the DSLR business. I think they would have had a nice large niche market for people who are capable of using the camera properly.
Don't get me started on the Kodak DSLR's. I could write a book. BAD firmware and RAW software crippled this camera when it was new, and it never reached its potential.
Those who have a 14n and even an SLR/n are lucky.
PS: Fred, you do not want a Kodak 14nx (the one upgraded by the factory).
This suffers multiple mainboard failures and runs hotter than the plain 14n or the SLR/n
Avoid buying a 14nx upgraded camera like the plague. No fix available for under $2000 and parts may not even be available if you do want to fix it.
The price of an eBay SLR/n is the same as the 14nx.
This suffers multiple mainboard failures and runs hotter than the plain 14n or the SLR/n
Avoid buying a 14nx upgraded camera like the plague. No fix available for under $2000 and parts may not even be available if you do want to fix it.
The price of an eBay SLR/n is the same as the 14nx.
zamario
zamario
@TMfabian
@TMfabian
No, actually I have never read that article.
After writing that post that made you laugh so much Leica launched the M8.2 and a new firmware which solved a great part of those problems that you see as ridiculous...
probably they weren't laughing so much.
Still the problems with colors and low light remain, and you have to pay 1300 euros to update the M8.
Continue laughing...
@TMfabian
No, actually I have never read that article.
After writing that post that made you laugh so much Leica launched the M8.2 and a new firmware which solved a great part of those problems that you see as ridiculous...
probably they weren't laughing so much.
Still the problems with colors and low light remain, and you have to pay 1300 euros to update the M8.
Continue laughing...
Ray Kilby
Established
I sold my M8 and to be honest I miss it terribly. I still use my M6 and I continue love that. I a now use a Nikon D3 with ziess lenses and that is a wonderful if rather bulky camera. Nikon has it's problems, Canon too. So does the M8. I just stopped putting it in my camera bag when going off on a job as I couldn't trust it, regardless of the fact that I have made some wonderful images from it. (Quality of the image, not my own ability I mean. I am not that sure of myself!) What am I trying to say here? I guess what I am saying is, all cameras have their advantages and disadvantages and it is a personal pay off as to which you like and dislike and can live with.
All that said. Have Leica ironed out the back focus issue, accuracy of the range finder lines missfires and odd electronic glitches. I don't mind about a bit of noise.
Could anybody tell me? Because if so I will be wanting to get my hands on one again.
All that said. Have Leica ironed out the back focus issue, accuracy of the range finder lines missfires and odd electronic glitches. I don't mind about a bit of noise.
Could anybody tell me? Because if so I will be wanting to get my hands on one again.
Man, did you guys kill this guys love of photography? No pictures on flickr since this post...
nixphotopix
Member
wow...i hate the noise above iso 640 and i'll avoid it at all costs. that aside, its a great camera, and the only camera apart from the epson in that category we have to choose from....deal with it. if you don't like it don't buy it. eventually leica will sort there thing out and catch up to the big name standards (maybe). something i look for too. what i really want though is a version from cosina without the epson sensor
phatnev
Well-known
I find this post hilarious because yeah his Flickr is suspect, but here are like 30 photos of the same band in the same setting, you should have peeked at his website, he's got some good stuff.
bo_lorentzen
Established
LOL....
He is a professional - don't try this at home.
Funny, art is normally thought to be in the eye of the beholder, but calling a critic "slanderous" seems a bit ambitious. if one of his clients do a web-search, they might just find... wait.. nothing of interest what so ever..
Ara volunteers his considerable photography skills at his church.
and is a graphic designer for industry and packaging..
Too bad the M8 don't quite live up to his cutting edge demands, Im sure there will be a DLSR which will please him in the future.
EDIT: I should edit this, it was funny to see the OP's statements, I'm sure Ara is a nice guy, but maybe with a little too big thoughts about himself in this perspective. I understand he have been learning wedding photography the last year so at this point is probably a working professional on Saturdays. Wonder if the M8 have found its way into production by now, there is nothing in google to say what type of professional photography Ara does, my comments is mainly based on his concern what a client might find if they google him...
Bo
www.bophoto.typepad.com
He is a professional - don't try this at home.
Funny, art is normally thought to be in the eye of the beholder, but calling a critic "slanderous" seems a bit ambitious. if one of his clients do a web-search, they might just find... wait.. nothing of interest what so ever..
Ara volunteers his considerable photography skills at his church.
and is a graphic designer for industry and packaging..
Too bad the M8 don't quite live up to his cutting edge demands, Im sure there will be a DLSR which will please him in the future.
EDIT: I should edit this, it was funny to see the OP's statements, I'm sure Ara is a nice guy, but maybe with a little too big thoughts about himself in this perspective. I understand he have been learning wedding photography the last year so at this point is probably a working professional on Saturdays. Wonder if the M8 have found its way into production by now, there is nothing in google to say what type of professional photography Ara does, my comments is mainly based on his concern what a client might find if they google him...
Bo
www.bophoto.typepad.com
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proenca
Proenca
ROTFL...
nice zombie thread that was pulled out of the grave.
had a read and made me laugh a bit
I love Leica and been using it for a few years now - but the M8 has its limits and so the M9.
True 5D and D700 and the likes beat it on the noise department by miles. And cost less.
And ? Live it with. Its the price we have to pay for such compactness and be able to use our M lens.
So even the M8 beats a Hasselblad digital at ISO 640 and that costs 4 times as much... and ? I dont see MF digital users complaining about it...
Every good photographer has to discover the limits of its camera and/or film and use it to hes best ability.
To be honest, when I want to shoot BW with my M8, I never go lower than ISO 640... the noise turns into great grain and I tried every plug in on earth.
Go figure.
bene
Established
Hmm maybe that is the compromise Leica. color at low ISO BW at Hi iso. SOund smart to me =)
abumac
Well-known
I am a journalist. I use mine in dng/ color up to 1250 Asa without noise-reduction. And in b+w/ fine jpg at 2500 Asa. And it works if you meter well. If not you will have a lot of noise in the darker parts of the foto.
Have a look here (click on the foto to enlarge it):
2500 Asa:
http://mimpresion.blogspot.com/2009/12/aminatu-libertad.html
http://mimpresion.blogspot.com/2009/11/straenkunstler-46.html
http://mimpresion.blogspot.com/2009/11/straenkunstler-45.html
1250 Asa:
http://mimpresion.blogspot.com/2009/12/ich-frage-mich-wie-lange-europa-das.html
Have a look here (click on the foto to enlarge it):
2500 Asa:
http://mimpresion.blogspot.com/2009/12/aminatu-libertad.html
http://mimpresion.blogspot.com/2009/11/straenkunstler-46.html
http://mimpresion.blogspot.com/2009/11/straenkunstler-45.html
1250 Asa:
http://mimpresion.blogspot.com/2009/12/ich-frage-mich-wie-lange-europa-das.html
benmacphoto
Well-known
This is the main problem with the ISO quality of the M8 and its users. ISO 1250 looks good if the shot is exposed properly.
ali_baba
Well-known
i have been using a pair of m8's for the last 2 years.
i have finally achieved digital leica happiness with the m9.
however, i was able to get great images sometimes upwards through the ISO range.
the m8 was a ripoff i will say, but it was a good ripoff.
i'm much happier shooting still with my m8 over my d3 for anything other than long focal lengths, which is why i have a d3.
the m8 was fine, now it's old news.
who wants to buy mine?
thanks
i have finally achieved digital leica happiness with the m9.
however, i was able to get great images sometimes upwards through the ISO range.
the m8 was a ripoff i will say, but it was a good ripoff.
i'm much happier shooting still with my m8 over my d3 for anything other than long focal lengths, which is why i have a d3.
the m8 was fine, now it's old news.
who wants to buy mine?
thanks
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_mark__
Well-known
blah blah blah
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NickTrop
Mentor
Brand defense!!! Woot woot! These threads are hilarious. Some of youse defend Leica's honor more than you'd defend your wife's. There ARE minimal expectations of cameras. Technology has reached a certain threshold, a certain minimum standard. Leica failed to meet it with the M8. Period. Years prior to the arrival of the M8, an quality/ISO capability standard was set by Nikon and Canon's DSLRs. Leice fell way short of this while at the same time continued to charge Leica prices.
Yet, they still absolutely gouged their "cult" - and that's all that it can be described as. You Leicaphiles are like Moonies, climate change deniers, "birthers" (who believe Obama is not a US citizen) etc. No point in arguing with you.
I have a sibling of the F30, the F20 - same "Super" CCD by Fuji. No problem shooting up to ISO 800. Fine. 1600 is even okay for small prints. That camera cost a couple hundred bucks new when it came out, round the same time as the M8. It is unacceptable that a camera that costs 25X as much as this can't do ISO above 320. Every pro camera can, every cheap consumer DSLR can, and the whole rangefinder thing is all about natural and low light shooting. Add to this the ridiculous fact that you have to slap a filter on the thing because of their IR sensor issue...
Please.
Clearly, you're paying for a little red dot. And that's it. And the M8 is a dog. Beautifully manufactured, sure, but a dog none the less. But a photographic tool isn't about how well the thing is manufactured. It's about capabilities. They manufactured a beautiful "golden slide rule" to the highest manufacturing specifications in the age of cheap graphing algebraic calculators you can get for 1/25th the price. The person who started this thread was only being intellectually honest. Defenders need deprogramming.
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Thing of it.... In defending this $5000 camera, someone suggested getting a used Fuji Finepix that go for around $100 used and didn't cost more than $200 new - that is to say, buy this cheap consumer point-n-shoot to "fill the gaps" of your $5000 Leica. Please. Quit giving Leica a pass.
dfoo
Well-known
Down boy down!
NickTrop
Mentor
Sorry, Dfoo... But for the cost of this camera, the M8, there should be no compromises. It should be cutting edge. It isn't. It even fell way short of the standards as a photographic tool set by consumer-level DSLRs at its release. Add the that the kludge of having to slap an IR filter on your lens (and what if you have many lenses with different sized threads? Wha - ? Do tell. A filter for every one? Or just "deal"... )
Don't like the problems of the M8? Sell it and throw a couple more thousand and buy the corrected M9.
I know what that red dot is. It's a testicle. Leica's got balls.
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NickTrop
Mentor
Do you think Leica released the M8, knowing it was inadequate, as part of an overall marketing stratergy to get you to buy two cameras that cost $5000 in the span of a few years... knowing that the Leica cult would pitch their M8 on the used market (which doesn't benefit Leica) to fund the purchase of their "fixed" M9?
Leica's success always had as much to do with branding - product, price, placement, and promotion as it did with their mechanical engineering prowess. Leica gets - what, around $12,000 in revenue from each cult member is a two-three year span, using this marketing stratergy... Build up anticipation... when are they coming out with a "digital rangefinder" - oh when, oh when??? ... till the demand is like a star about to Super Nova, the cultists were waving their credit cards and check books to their messiah ready to buy anything with the little red testicle symbol on it.... Then God comes down from the mountain, camera raised high about his head, and gives the cult member the sacred "beta" - a camera with enough annoyance to be discovered like "easter eggs" in video games, 'cept these weren't fun ones... Hey - ISO looks crappy!!! Hey, what's with this filter!!! Thus, these annoyances prompted the cult to ditch the "beta", sell it on the used market to the poorer cult members, thus funding the second $5000+ camera purchase in a couple of years...
Hilarious... What a grift.
Instead of "cutting edge" photographic tools, Leica gave us "cutting edge planned obsolescence"... Nice.
Remember... Red dot = testicle. Leica's got balls.
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Leica's success always had as much to do with branding - product, price, placement, and promotion as it did with their mechanical engineering prowess. Leica gets - what, around $12,000 in revenue from each cult member is a two-three year span, using this marketing stratergy... Build up anticipation... when are they coming out with a "digital rangefinder" - oh when, oh when??? ... till the demand is like a star about to Super Nova, the cultists were waving their credit cards and check books to their messiah ready to buy anything with the little red testicle symbol on it.... Then God comes down from the mountain, camera raised high about his head, and gives the cult member the sacred "beta" - a camera with enough annoyance to be discovered like "easter eggs" in video games, 'cept these weren't fun ones... Hey - ISO looks crappy!!! Hey, what's with this filter!!! Thus, these annoyances prompted the cult to ditch the "beta", sell it on the used market to the poorer cult members, thus funding the second $5000+ camera purchase in a couple of years...
Hilarious... What a grift.
Instead of "cutting edge" photographic tools, Leica gave us "cutting edge planned obsolescence"... Nice.
Remember... Red dot = testicle. Leica's got balls.
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