silverbullet
Well-known
two days ago Leica informed after more and more discussion in the LUF about the 'corrosion-problem' with sensors of M9/P, MM and M-E.
It seems that from now on the free of charge replacement of sensors is limited by certain purchase dates.
Here the post:
"Based on this thread, we feel the need to clarifying a couple of things about the sensor marks issue you have been experiencing. The issue is linked with corrosion effects on the cover glass of the CCD sensor in Leica M9, M9-P, M Monochrom and M-E cameras. They manifest themselves as marks on images captured at smaller apertures (f/5.6-22). The new Leica M (Type 240) with the CMOS sensor is not affected by this problem. We are truly sorry for the inconvenience encountered and we have set up the following scheme for servicing the sensors of the products affected. Please be aware that a contact-free cleaning of the sensor is essential in preventing the issue.
• Customer care will perform sensor cleaning free of charge by prior arrangement.
• In the case of damage as a result of corrosion, the sensor will be replaced free of charge up to three years following the date of purchase. Leica Camera AG will cover the full costs of replacement, amounting to 1,800 euros plus applicable VAT. This does not apply to sensors damaged by scratching or breakage of the sensor glass.
• In the fourth and fifth year following the date of purchase, sensors damaged by the corrosion effects described will be replaced for a fixed charge of 600 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 1,200 euros.
• In the sixth and seventh year following the date of purchase, sensor replacement will be offered at a fixed charge of 1,200 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 600 euros.
• For the eighth and more years following the date of purchase, sensor replacement will be offered at a fixed charge of 1,500 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 300 euros.
• The prices stated apply for direct shipment of the camera to Leica Customer Care in Wetzlar or the Customer Care department of a national distributor. Additional costs may arise when the camera is sent to Leica through a dealer.
• Mandatory warranty conditions will apply after customers have taken advantage of the extended goodwill arrangement.
• As longer waiting times may otherwise occur, the camera should only be sent to Customer Care after prior arrangement.
•
We will continue watching this thread so you are welcome to react here.
^JJ with Leica-camera"
That's it.
It seems that from now on the free of charge replacement of sensors is limited by certain purchase dates.
Here the post:
"Based on this thread, we feel the need to clarifying a couple of things about the sensor marks issue you have been experiencing. The issue is linked with corrosion effects on the cover glass of the CCD sensor in Leica M9, M9-P, M Monochrom and M-E cameras. They manifest themselves as marks on images captured at smaller apertures (f/5.6-22). The new Leica M (Type 240) with the CMOS sensor is not affected by this problem. We are truly sorry for the inconvenience encountered and we have set up the following scheme for servicing the sensors of the products affected. Please be aware that a contact-free cleaning of the sensor is essential in preventing the issue.
• Customer care will perform sensor cleaning free of charge by prior arrangement.
• In the case of damage as a result of corrosion, the sensor will be replaced free of charge up to three years following the date of purchase. Leica Camera AG will cover the full costs of replacement, amounting to 1,800 euros plus applicable VAT. This does not apply to sensors damaged by scratching or breakage of the sensor glass.
• In the fourth and fifth year following the date of purchase, sensors damaged by the corrosion effects described will be replaced for a fixed charge of 600 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 1,200 euros.
• In the sixth and seventh year following the date of purchase, sensor replacement will be offered at a fixed charge of 1,200 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 600 euros.
• For the eighth and more years following the date of purchase, sensor replacement will be offered at a fixed charge of 1,500 euros plus applicable VAT. Leica Camera AG will cover the remaining costs of 300 euros.
• The prices stated apply for direct shipment of the camera to Leica Customer Care in Wetzlar or the Customer Care department of a national distributor. Additional costs may arise when the camera is sent to Leica through a dealer.
• Mandatory warranty conditions will apply after customers have taken advantage of the extended goodwill arrangement.
• As longer waiting times may otherwise occur, the camera should only be sent to Customer Care after prior arrangement.
•
We will continue watching this thread so you are welcome to react here.
^JJ with Leica-camera"
That's it.
Jockos
Well-known
*woooosh*
That's the sound of used gear prices falling.
That's the sound of used gear prices falling.
newsgrunt
Well-known
yup, maybe I should get an a la carte MP instead of the M-P.
Wow, just wow.
x-ray
Mentor
I wonder if anyone has has to have it replaced more than once? My M9 needed a new sensor in the first few months after I bought it new. This makes me even happier that I sold it.
Pete B
Well-known
I've not regretted selling my 2 M9Ps in favour of a couple of film MPs.
Pete
Pete
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
I guess that just saved me the 8 grand I was going to spend on the current Monochrom.
I'm sorry, but how are you supposed to do "non-contact" cleaning? Send your camera in to Leica semiannually for a four-week cleaning? And does "non-contact" apply to the sticky gel cubes that Leica uses to clean sensors?
Dante
I'm sorry, but how are you supposed to do "non-contact" cleaning? Send your camera in to Leica semiannually for a four-week cleaning? And does "non-contact" apply to the sticky gel cubes that Leica uses to clean sensors?
Dante
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I can't help but feel that this statement from Leica, being quoted everywhere just as it is, is a misrepresentation placed out of*its proper context.
Why do people hate Leica so much? Even "rangefinder enthusiasts" on this forum damn them every other sentence.
G
Why do people hate Leica so much? Even "rangefinder enthusiasts" on this forum damn them every other sentence.
G
silverbullet
Well-known
from my point of view it's a clever strategy from Leica to shift the responsibility to the customer who has no chance to argue against the now 'wrong' cleaning methods.
x-ray
Mentor
My sensor needed replaced and I never cleaned it, not even with a blower.
The resentment comes from Leica promoting themselves as the finest camera on earth and especially the M9 is plagued with continuing problems. The price isnt in line with quality, reliability and performance. Leica survives on that perception not on reality.
I don't think any recent product has been beat up more than the Nikon Df. I've owned both an M9 and currently own a Df. The beating Nikon has taken would have been praise if the Df had a red dot on the front. The beating that Nikon has taken wasn't even over performance and reliabity. It was over cosmetics. I'm afraid it all about the name.
V-12
Well-known
If you want to use the word 'reality' you should also put it into context and realize that given the numbers of M9's sold there are in the wider scheme of things very few disgruntled owners.
I mean, for instance, you have people who like to smash up their Nikon's and can't appreciate the delicacy of the rangefinder mechanism, so if they ever used a Leica they are likely to complain at some stage. But used with common sense the rangefinder mechanism see's a lot of use in war zones around the world and photographers don't feel the need to whine and complain, they just get on with their work.
If I bury into the context of the quoted response from Leica, and the wider discussion that has gone on around the subject, it is to guard against the gung ho use of liberal amounts of cleaning fluid that seep around the edges of the sensor. A 'tiny drop' should be taken literally, but some people have no sense of delicacy in servicing machines of any sort.
So the world has not fallen in, sensible people can continue to clean dust from their sensor as needed, and some thought should be given to the tens of thousands of Leica users who don't feel the need to vent, because there are many more of them than you seem to think.
V
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I agree. Just wow.
rscheffler
Well-known
Show me a camera manufacturer with a spotless record of product design resulting in maintenance and defect-free equipment. At least Leica has stated their policy, which will make it easier for anyone considering this camera to better weigh the risks involved. And it seems, some have already made their decisions.
IMO, the value of the M9/MM as a photographic tool, for those who want a FF digital rangefinder camera, outweighs the risk of a production defect or eventual malfunction. And I've been an M9 owner for ~4 years and have had a few problems with it and have had to adapt to its quirks. In respect to quirks, the M240 is a definite improvement. To a degree, Leica is a victim of the hodgepodge of 3rd party suppliers they had pretty much no other choice in using to even bring the M8/M9 to market, with no shortage of teething problems. At least they've been pretty good at repairing these problems at no cost to the user, even out of warranty. Though their turnaround time has been abysmal.
Having been a longtime Canon user, i've experienced my share of problems with that platform, too... such as the 1D Mark III recalls/service advisories. Canon had to be pretty much publicly shamed into admitting and attempting to resolve that problem... Then there is the problem of Canon servicing equipment, including lenses, only up to ~5-7 years after discontinuation. Imagine if Leica stopped servicing their previous generation lenses.
The M9 as a used camera is not without some financial risk to the buyer/owner. Each person has to weight the pros and cons based on their own criteria. Perhaps used resale will take a hit, but what digital camera doesn't eventually? While ca. 2010-2012 were an anomaly for the value of used Leica products often appreciating, one can't buy into a digital camera system expecting such a trend to continue indefinitely. These things aren't monetary investment tools and with Leica now in their new facilities and increasing production capacity and volume, the likelihood of non-artificial supply shortages over the longer term are slim. Meaning, ample stock on dealers' shelves will soften demand for alternative sources of equipment and affect resale value, as we're seeing with used lens prices. IMO, if the used M9 market results in a further drop in resale value, it just makes the M9 that much easier of a digital entry to Leica M with which to grow the Leica M community.
IMO, the value of the M9/MM as a photographic tool, for those who want a FF digital rangefinder camera, outweighs the risk of a production defect or eventual malfunction. And I've been an M9 owner for ~4 years and have had a few problems with it and have had to adapt to its quirks. In respect to quirks, the M240 is a definite improvement. To a degree, Leica is a victim of the hodgepodge of 3rd party suppliers they had pretty much no other choice in using to even bring the M8/M9 to market, with no shortage of teething problems. At least they've been pretty good at repairing these problems at no cost to the user, even out of warranty. Though their turnaround time has been abysmal.
Having been a longtime Canon user, i've experienced my share of problems with that platform, too... such as the 1D Mark III recalls/service advisories. Canon had to be pretty much publicly shamed into admitting and attempting to resolve that problem... Then there is the problem of Canon servicing equipment, including lenses, only up to ~5-7 years after discontinuation. Imagine if Leica stopped servicing their previous generation lenses.
The M9 as a used camera is not without some financial risk to the buyer/owner. Each person has to weight the pros and cons based on their own criteria. Perhaps used resale will take a hit, but what digital camera doesn't eventually? While ca. 2010-2012 were an anomaly for the value of used Leica products often appreciating, one can't buy into a digital camera system expecting such a trend to continue indefinitely. These things aren't monetary investment tools and with Leica now in their new facilities and increasing production capacity and volume, the likelihood of non-artificial supply shortages over the longer term are slim. Meaning, ample stock on dealers' shelves will soften demand for alternative sources of equipment and affect resale value, as we're seeing with used lens prices. IMO, if the used M9 market results in a further drop in resale value, it just makes the M9 that much easier of a digital entry to Leica M with which to grow the Leica M community.
quadtones
Established
So...does this mean I have to carry two or three bodies with primes mounted and never change them? :bang:
dogberryjr
[Pithy phrase]
"We will continue watching this thread so you are welcome to react here."
Umm, thanks??
Umm, thanks??
FrozenInTime
Well-known
Problem is the only way to clean away the spots of oil thrown off by the shutter is with a solvent.
edit : Is it the shutter oil that's causing the pitting ; the cleaning solvent alone or the cleaning solvent reacting to the oil ?
edit : Is it the shutter oil that's causing the pitting ; the cleaning solvent alone or the cleaning solvent reacting to the oil ?
YYV_146
Well-known
The sensor replacement is 1,800 euros? WTF?
1,800 euros can get you a pretty nice FF body these days. Plus some nice accessories. My only sensor replacement experience is with Canon, and they charged less than $500 for the whole out-of-warranty repair.
1,800 euros can get you a pretty nice FF body these days. Plus some nice accessories. My only sensor replacement experience is with Canon, and they charged less than $500 for the whole out-of-warranty repair.
Brian Atherton
Well-known
For a while now I have been debating seriously with myself whether to make one last digital purchase and get a new Monochrom.
After reading the statement posted by silverbullet, I've made a decision...
If you’re watching this thread Leica, you’ve just lost a customer.
After reading the statement posted by silverbullet, I've made a decision...
If you’re watching this thread Leica, you’ve just lost a customer.
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
If the pitting comes from cleaning, it's a cover glass issue - and no way in hell should it be that expensive. Go to MaxMax and see what it costs to replace the glass on most cameras - it's like $300. Leica seems tied in to the idea of replacing the entire sensor assembly.
My guess (and this could be totally uneducated) is that the IR absorption filter (probably Schott S8612) has its AR coating breached, which allows moisture infiltration and rare earth corrosion (the data sheets for the glass warn about moisture). This is a known problem to people who shoot full-spectrum converted cameras; the ionically colored glass is sensitive to moisture. The AR coatings tend to protect them a bit. Corrosion would not be problem on the M8, which uses an interference filter (the coating, not the glass, controls the IR).
BTW, the "pits" you see on old lenses are a product of the corrosion phenomenon, or so Focal Point tells me.
Dante
porktaco
Well-known
i wonder if they'll throw in a silent m240 shutter-winder