KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Get a rubber stopper (hardware store) that will fit the name ring on the taking lens -- the one I used is 1" on the wider end and 3/4" on the narrower end. I forget which end I used, but rest the camera face up and set the stopper squarely on the name ring, and push down firmly while turning the stopper counterclockwise. The name ring, along with the whole front lens block, should unscrew, giving direct access to the shutter leaves.
I then take a small piece of paper and work the corners under as many of the leaves as I can -- some are easier to get under than others. Work the paper back and forth, in and out -- the idea is to break up the gunk that's keeping the shutter leaves frozen together. You may not see any residue at all on the paper, but I think you'll find the shutter will free up almost immediately. Reattach the front lens group, and you'll be good to go.
(The stopper will most likely touch the front lens surface, so you may want to protect it with tape or a small piece of paper, but I have not found any problem with skipping this step. Since the lens turns along with the name ring, the stopper won't be rubbing across the surface.)
Note that this may not be a permanent fix -- probably a proper shutter cleaning is called for. But if you exercise the shutter regularly it probably will be OK. And if not, lather, rinse, repeat.
Hope this works for you.
gzuiko
Established
Great, Thanks. I appreciate the help. I knew going into this buy that there could be this problem, but it's just so nice looking, looks like it's new. I'll start looking for the stoppers.
Best wishes,
Jim
gzuiko
Established
Well I was unable to get it to budge with the rubber stopper. Doesn't seem to want to grip enough to get it started turning. I got frustrated with it and started dry firing the shutter and actually got it to fire a few times and then it got stuck in the open position, and doesn't want to complete the cycle. So I'm back to square one again. I guess I could try heating it up a little and see if it releases the rest of the way. But since I can't get the lens ring loose I may end up sending it off to someone for a proper fix. I guess at this point I shouldn't be worried about waiting awhile. There is definitely residue on the shutter blades causing the trouble. I put a little circle of microfiber cloth against the lens glass to make sure I don't damage it while I'm wrestling with this but I think I'm stuck, and don't want to risk messing up the lens, which is actually very nice.
gzuiko
Established
Update: I did get the shutter to dry fire again a number of times, but not consistently. Most consistent is 1/100. Once I feel confident enough in that after repeated dry firing I may try running a roll of film through it. I would love to get the thing open and dry out the shutter leaves, but so far can't get it apart. At least it's not jammed open anymore.
gzuiko
Established
The Sawyer's Mark IV will fire most of the time (shutter blades opening most of the time) at 1/500 sec. Some of the time at 1/250. Once in awhile at 1/100 if you fire it enough times. I have ordered another type of rubber stopper to try getting the lens ring off. I'd like to shoot a roll of film through it, but not at this point. even thought about keeping it at 1/500 and shooting the entire roll. I'll get it figured out or sent off for repair. This thread has gone dead, I guess I killed it.... 
Jim
Jim
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Haha! I was meaning to answer you -- I was wondering whether you had the right sort of stopper. You need a black rubber test tube stopper, not a sink drain stopper, which isn't soft enough, or the right size. A decent hardware store should have these, in the trays where you find screws, bolts, nuts etc. And I think that it may not help, from a gripping standpoint, to cover the lens glass -- you need all the gripping surface you can get, so let the stopper contact the front element. You can clean it off once you've gotten the front group off.
Looking forward to hearing more. You're getting it working, but I do think cleaning the leaves will make a huge difference.
Looking forward to hearing more. You're getting it working, but I do think cleaning the leaves will make a huge difference.
gzuiko
Established
I got another set of rubber stoppers, actually ones that were made for this purpose. And I managed to get it apart, I elected to not put any naptha in there to dry up the oily blades, but instead used just a dab of ROR-1 which is my secret "go to" lens cleaner on a clean Q-tip, and absorbed as much of the residue as I could. I've been dry firing through all the speeds and everything is working great. I'm going to let it air out a little before I put it all back together though, just to be sure I've given it a chance to dry out. Amazingly all the slow speed gearing seems to work fine. I don't have a lot of cameras with the Seikosha shutter, but apparently they are quite robust after all, the weak point being the oil getting on the shutter blades. Hopefully, by the end of today I'll be up and shooting with this camera. I'm glad I didn't hear back from the repair guy or I may have sent it off for a repair that would have taken probably 4 months or more.
Thanks for talking me through this. I get stuck sometimes on the small stuff and the more cameras I'm able to fix the better I'll get at this.
Jim
Attachments
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Very glad to hear it, indeed! Yes, let it sit a day or two to make sure it's all dry and still working, before putting the lens back together. Those stoppers look like the very thing -- where'd you get them? As for me, I have to get some film -- I guess the Rerapan is the way to go. What are you going to use?
gzuiko
Established
I got the rubber "stoppers" on amazon for around 20 bucks. The first set I got that didn't work were just plain white rubber stoppers. These worked great and all the sizes are covered. I've got a roll of respooled Ektar 100 in it right now, and I'm going to try some Rerapan 100 silde film next.
Jim
Attachments
gzuiko
Established
I finished the roll of respooled Ektar and have mailed it off for processing. I had a minor snafu when I started the roll off, and lost the first shot, I think it was because I did all the dry firing with the counter on 1, so I started off not having the camera showing the bullseye. The counter behaved the rest of the way through.
gzuiko
Established
Next thing I need to do it take the finder off and clean some of the dirt off the mirror and see if I can clean the underside of the ground glass any.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Should be straightforward. Remove the four screws at the corners (need a long-shanked screwdriver though). The finder should lift off. Be careful cleaning the mirror though -- the silvering is on the top surface.
gzuiko
Established
Yes, I did it last night, turns out there were a few specks of dust on the mirror but most of what I was seeing was on the top of the ground glass, so I cleaned that as well as I could and it made a big difference.
Something I discovered is that unless you start the film loading process with the counter on the bullseye, it can mess up the whole thing. I lost the first shot on my test roll because I was on frame 1 but the shutter wasn't cocked. So next roll I've got the bullseye showing, it made it all the way through the rest of the test roll without issue. More film coming soon, 2 rolls of Rerapan 100 in the mail.
Jim
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Yes, the instructions are quite clear about that -- make sure the counter is on the bullseye or you will be messed up, and lose a bunch of pictures. It's easily enough corrected by turning the toothed wheel/shaft in the takeup chamber.
Looking forward to seeing these pictures. Where have you sent the film for developing?
My news is that I finally found the Rolleiflex Baby I knew I had somewhere; very pleased about that. I am trying to figure out how to fool the camera into thinking it's got film loaded, so I can check the shutter operation. I assume I have to push in both the lever that governs the frame counter (and tells the camera the back is closed), and the small film thickness sensor, but I think I'll need three hands to do that! Any tricks others have will be most welcome.
The big surprise is that along with the Baby I found a Sawyers Mark IV. Completely forgot I had it. It needed cleaning up, but the shutter seems to work, give or take. But unlike with the Primo Jr I can't get the front lens group to come off, only the name ring. I may need to try the rubber stopper trick on the lens glass separately, so I can get at the shutter leaves. Sadly, the camera had taken an impact, which may be why I had put it away -- the viewing lens looks cockeyed and it's clear that it isn't aligned with the taking lens. I think this is beyond my capabilities. But it did come with a lens cap!
Looking forward to seeing these pictures. Where have you sent the film for developing?
My news is that I finally found the Rolleiflex Baby I knew I had somewhere; very pleased about that. I am trying to figure out how to fool the camera into thinking it's got film loaded, so I can check the shutter operation. I assume I have to push in both the lever that governs the frame counter (and tells the camera the back is closed), and the small film thickness sensor, but I think I'll need three hands to do that! Any tricks others have will be most welcome.
The big surprise is that along with the Baby I found a Sawyers Mark IV. Completely forgot I had it. It needed cleaning up, but the shutter seems to work, give or take. But unlike with the Primo Jr I can't get the front lens group to come off, only the name ring. I may need to try the rubber stopper trick on the lens glass separately, so I can get at the shutter leaves. Sadly, the camera had taken an impact, which may be why I had put it away -- the viewing lens looks cockeyed and it's clear that it isn't aligned with the taking lens. I think this is beyond my capabilities. But it did come with a lens cap!
gzuiko
Established
When I took the lens on the Sawyer's apart, the lens ring came off but the glass element stayed in. I had to use one of the other rubber lens openers from that set I got and it came right out so it was a multi step process getting mine apart. I should note that yesterday I also opened up two Olympus 35 S II cameras I had that had sticky shutter leaves and both were easily fixed using that method of just applying a little of the ROR-1 lens cleaning fluid with a Q Tip and working the shutter a few times, then dabbing off the edges of the leaves with the moistened Q Tip and alternating with the dry Q Tip end. The good thing about using that method instead of using naptha is that you don't have the same issues with removing the naptha, the ROR-1 just evaporated out without fouling the blades or the inner lens element at all! Once I make sure everything is dry and dry fire the shutter a few times, I just put it all back in and it works great. So I've used this method to fix three cameras now. I was tempted to get another Primo Jr to fix up the same way, but in all honesty as long as I have this nice one working I am good to go. It is so much easier to use with the faster 2.8 lenses. I can actually use the magnifier and see the entire focusing screen to focus and shoot with. My eyes these days don't work well using a TLR the way they used to, and focusing with the Sawyer's is a dream now. If the test photos check out, I am prepared to do some serious shooting with this. My other two 4x4 TLRs are the Yashica 44 (in pretty much mint) and a Yashica 44a that shows a little wear but works well. Neither one feels like the quality camera that the Sawyers does.
Oh, if you've never tried ROR-1 lens cleaner, it's short for "Residual Oil Remover", and that's what gave me the idea about using it instead of lighter fluid. It seems to work wonderfully. I will need to make sure I order more. Amazon sells it now. It's the stuff that I've used for years to clean lenses, it was originally made by a chemist in his garage in Chicago...
The film I sent off is some stuff I got from a guy in Michigan on eBay who cuts film down from 120 and respools it and some of it he sells with processing included. So I sent him back the film in a prepaid envelope and he's supposedly going to develop and make prints (it's Ektar 100 print film) and get them back to me for the one price. We will see how that goes. I also ordered two more rolls of Rerapan 100 slide film from https://filmphotographystore.com/ that I will probably send to The Darkroom after I check to make sure they will still do 127 film.
Jim
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Fiddling with the Baby Rollei while camped out on an industry conference call (aka "multitasking") -- I found out from an internet search that actually the shutter will work with no film in the camera. First, push in and hold the button on the bottom of the lens standard. Then, slide the flash and selftimer ("V") switch to the flashbulb setting. Finally, open the finder hood (shutter won't fire if this is closed). The shutter should cock and fire by winding the knob. I'm having interim success -- the shutter clearly needs exercising after who knows how many years -- but at least the mechanism isn't jammed, and the shutter blades aren't gummed up.
The above sequence falls into the category of "not intuitively obvious," and I don't think this is in the instruction manual either.
The above sequence falls into the category of "not intuitively obvious," and I don't think this is in the instruction manual either.
css9450
Mentor
I think it's even simpler than that. Wind the knob, and after some amount of revolution that will be sufficient to cock the shutter and thus it will fire when you press the button. The frame counter is a separate mechanism and its sequence is started by the film-sensing pin, so with the camera empty the film counter won't work. But that's OK. The shutter should fire just fine.
Unfortunately I can't test mine at the moment because it has film in it. But that is how mine works, at least.
When I first bought the camera, the self-timer (or synchro lever?) was on some strange setting and the camera wouldn't fire. I was just about to ship it back to the seller and ask for a refund when I stumbled on the idea of changing the setting and lo and behold it started working perfectly. Again, I can't describe or test it at the moment but I know for certain, I'll never change that lever ever again!
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Unfortunately I find that as I wind the knob and encounter some increased resistance, the shutter then fires all by itself. And doesn't close all the way back. The shutter release button has no effect -- doesn't trip the shutter. The problem seems to be that the shutter gets wound but then trips, so the sear (to use a firearms term) is not holding.
So I'll have to see whether some naphtha maybe can help the situation. But probably not -- unless I tear the camera down, which I'm not competent to do.
So I'll have to see whether some naphtha maybe can help the situation. But probably not -- unless I tear the camera down, which I'm not competent to do.
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
OK, I know I'm boring the vast majority of you, but I am reporting that the lighter fluid seems to have done the trick -- shutter is working. Slow speeds drag, but I will take it. And of course I'm fully prepared to have to repeat the treatment, but right now it's working well.
css9450, you are correct -- you turn the knob and encounter resistance; keep turning until the resistance is overcome, and the shutter is charged. The shutter had been tripping at the point the resistance was overcome. Hopefully the lighter fluid cleaned it up.
Setting shutter speeds is rather a PITA though, due to the light value system of coupled aperture and shutter speeds that was so common on many cameras of the '50s. So be it. But I am happy -- subject to ongoing checking to be sure things don't regress. Now to find a proper lens shade. (And get some film!)
css9450, you are correct -- you turn the knob and encounter resistance; keep turning until the resistance is overcome, and the shutter is charged. The shutter had been tripping at the point the resistance was overcome. Hopefully the lighter fluid cleaned it up.
Setting shutter speeds is rather a PITA though, due to the light value system of coupled aperture and shutter speeds that was so common on many cameras of the '50s. So be it. But I am happy -- subject to ongoing checking to be sure things don't regress. Now to find a proper lens shade. (And get some film!)
gzuiko
Established
No you're not boring me at least. Even if I don't yet own a Baby Rollei. Finding a place to compare notes on 4x4 TLR use is hard to do these days, so I'll be watching this thread as I play with my two Yashica 44s and the Sawyer's.
I also did dig out me two Rollei TLR guidebooks from the closet so I can compare models and serial numbers at least.
Jim