Hi Tom,
At one time or another you have owned just about every Leica rangefinder model ever made, except the UR Leica. With that as a starting point, I know the M2 is your favorite. Why does it appeal to you so much?
Stephen
At one time or another you have owned just about every Leica rangefinder model ever made, except the UR Leica. With that as a starting point, I know the M2 is your favorite. Why does it appeal to you so much?
Stephen
Marc-A.
I Shoot Film
I'm looking forward to Tom's answer. The M2 is the best but I need also an MP and a M3 
Xmas
Mentor
Stephen
Oldies would plump for a M3 unless they are 35mm shooters whenit is a...
Noel
Oldies would plump for a M3 unless they are 35mm shooters whenit is a...
Noel
kbg32
neo-romanticist
Tom must be thinking up a great answer. This thread is days old!
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
I wasn't even trying to think up an answer, but the internal coupling on our "electronics system" went on the "fritz" and I didn't get it fixed until today.
My first leica was a M3 (in 1957) and I "cut my teeth" on that one. It is very good with a 50 or a 90, but miserable with the 35mm.The lens with goggles is too big and you add several layers of glass to dim the finder.
Once I encountered the M2, it was love at first sight as they say. I put a 35/2 on it and that was that! It is one of the most "tactile" of the M's. Yes, you have to do some work, like setting the counter (big deal, you cant advance anymore when you get to the end of the roll) and just like the M3 you have to pull out that take up spool to load. An old trick was to "pre-load" several spools with film and keep them in your pocket and just pull out the finished one and grab one of the ones in the pocket.
The M2 also added the benefit of the Leicavit MP, no conversion necessary (you could get it adapted to the M3 in those days too, but it required that you send the camera to Wetzlar). I am a left eye shooter and though I have tried to shoot with my right eye it does not work. The film-advance lever was forever knocking my glasses off. With the Leicavit you could keep it at your eye and keep shooting.
For a while I was using the original MP, two were M3 finder and one had been converted to M2 finder. It might be a highly collectible camera, but it was a rough one! The case hardened gears felt like you had sand in the gear train!
An other advantage to the M2 today is that a lot of the viewfinder parts are the same for a m6 and a M2 (and that proves the basic design of the 0.72 finder too) and you can still get it fixed at a reasonable price. Try finding a replacement m3 finder!
The M4 was a nice evolution of the M2/M3, except that I have a tendency to bend my rewind cranks and have to grind out the flange at the bottom. That angled crank is fragile. The pull up "knobbly" on a M2 or M3 will take a sustantial knock before it jams (and often you can bend it back with a screw driver or a pair of pliers).
Yes. I do have M3's and M4-P's, M6's and MP's and they are very nice cameras, but taking pictures with a M2 gives me more satistaction. When I press the relase-button, it is a mechanical action, not a "multi task" operation by a chip (be it a light meter only or the full gamut of a M7).
I have also found that i shoot faster with the M2 than with the metered M's. OK, so my exposures are most likely better with the M6 (almost boringly so), but the time it takes to either "obey" the diodes or ignore them slows me down. With the M2 it is just a set,focus,shoot in one go. Over the last 4-5 decades I have used Tri-X and I can usually judge the exposure pretty well and have it preset when I walk around.
When my last leicavit died in 1985 (no more parts available) i proceeded to design and start manufacturing my own version of it for the M4P/M6/MP and I have been doing for 20 years now. Of course, the thousands of Rapidwinders I made for the M6 etc was only a pre-amble for a small series of Rapidwinder M2's (total of 400) to satisfy my own demand and that of other M2 afficinados.
I just got back one of my M2's from service (Kindermann Canada), I bought this one used some years back. The chrome is worn through at the rewind (more than a roll a year here), the shutter speed dial has the typical "press" shooters tell tale "dents" at 1/50 (flash) and 1/250 and 1/500. The rest of the shutter speed dial flange is "mint". This is the only time i wish for a small 'memory" in a camera, where you could replay thumbnails of all the shots taken with it, before it fell into my hands. No. it was not broken or anything. It just needed some oil, a couple of curtains (the patches started to look like a social disease) and the finder looked vaguely tropical in its growth. Well, now it should be good for another decade or two!
The "long shaft" of the M2 also can save your day. Once, a long time ago while on a job, I dropped the rewind spool in a river (no spare along -Never go out without an extra spool, particularly with the M3). Desperation and the potential editorial wrath had me taping the film on to the long shaft. Worked fine and i did several rolls this way. Back at the paper i put in a new spool . How the hell could I know that all the residue glue on the tape would stick to the shaft! The service guy had to use a pair of pliers and the heat from a lighter to remove the take up spool!
My first leica was a M3 (in 1957) and I "cut my teeth" on that one. It is very good with a 50 or a 90, but miserable with the 35mm.The lens with goggles is too big and you add several layers of glass to dim the finder.
Once I encountered the M2, it was love at first sight as they say. I put a 35/2 on it and that was that! It is one of the most "tactile" of the M's. Yes, you have to do some work, like setting the counter (big deal, you cant advance anymore when you get to the end of the roll) and just like the M3 you have to pull out that take up spool to load. An old trick was to "pre-load" several spools with film and keep them in your pocket and just pull out the finished one and grab one of the ones in the pocket.
The M2 also added the benefit of the Leicavit MP, no conversion necessary (you could get it adapted to the M3 in those days too, but it required that you send the camera to Wetzlar). I am a left eye shooter and though I have tried to shoot with my right eye it does not work. The film-advance lever was forever knocking my glasses off. With the Leicavit you could keep it at your eye and keep shooting.
For a while I was using the original MP, two were M3 finder and one had been converted to M2 finder. It might be a highly collectible camera, but it was a rough one! The case hardened gears felt like you had sand in the gear train!
An other advantage to the M2 today is that a lot of the viewfinder parts are the same for a m6 and a M2 (and that proves the basic design of the 0.72 finder too) and you can still get it fixed at a reasonable price. Try finding a replacement m3 finder!
The M4 was a nice evolution of the M2/M3, except that I have a tendency to bend my rewind cranks and have to grind out the flange at the bottom. That angled crank is fragile. The pull up "knobbly" on a M2 or M3 will take a sustantial knock before it jams (and often you can bend it back with a screw driver or a pair of pliers).
Yes. I do have M3's and M4-P's, M6's and MP's and they are very nice cameras, but taking pictures with a M2 gives me more satistaction. When I press the relase-button, it is a mechanical action, not a "multi task" operation by a chip (be it a light meter only or the full gamut of a M7).
I have also found that i shoot faster with the M2 than with the metered M's. OK, so my exposures are most likely better with the M6 (almost boringly so), but the time it takes to either "obey" the diodes or ignore them slows me down. With the M2 it is just a set,focus,shoot in one go. Over the last 4-5 decades I have used Tri-X and I can usually judge the exposure pretty well and have it preset when I walk around.
When my last leicavit died in 1985 (no more parts available) i proceeded to design and start manufacturing my own version of it for the M4P/M6/MP and I have been doing for 20 years now. Of course, the thousands of Rapidwinders I made for the M6 etc was only a pre-amble for a small series of Rapidwinder M2's (total of 400) to satisfy my own demand and that of other M2 afficinados.
I just got back one of my M2's from service (Kindermann Canada), I bought this one used some years back. The chrome is worn through at the rewind (more than a roll a year here), the shutter speed dial has the typical "press" shooters tell tale "dents" at 1/50 (flash) and 1/250 and 1/500. The rest of the shutter speed dial flange is "mint". This is the only time i wish for a small 'memory" in a camera, where you could replay thumbnails of all the shots taken with it, before it fell into my hands. No. it was not broken or anything. It just needed some oil, a couple of curtains (the patches started to look like a social disease) and the finder looked vaguely tropical in its growth. Well, now it should be good for another decade or two!
The "long shaft" of the M2 also can save your day. Once, a long time ago while on a job, I dropped the rewind spool in a river (no spare along -Never go out without an extra spool, particularly with the M3). Desperation and the potential editorial wrath had me taping the film on to the long shaft. Worked fine and i did several rolls this way. Back at the paper i put in a new spool . How the hell could I know that all the residue glue on the tape would stick to the shaft! The service guy had to use a pair of pliers and the heat from a lighter to remove the take up spool!
Last edited:
erikhaugsby
killer of threads
Xmas said:
I'm actually a 50 guy, but I don't ever envision myself using the M3 because its finder is just filthy (figuratively, not literally) compared to the cleanliness of the M2's framelines.
There ain't nothing that can compare to one at a time. (considering camera framelines, that is
).sirius
Well-known
Thank-you Tom. I enjoyed your post. I felt like I was sitting next to a fire with a cup of tea while I was listening to your stories.
I'm enjoying my camera emensely. I wonder, though, if it needs a CLA. It is very loud when I release the shutter. Is that normal? Everyone turns a looks at me when I snap a picture. I'm so used to modern SLRs and digital which are rather quiet these days.
I'm happy to see you participating here. cheers
I'm enjoying my camera emensely. I wonder, though, if it needs a CLA. It is very loud when I release the shutter. Is that normal? Everyone turns a looks at me when I snap a picture. I'm so used to modern SLRs and digital which are rather quiet these days.
I'm happy to see you participating here. cheers
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Ahhhh ... as a proud M2 owner my heart has just swelled!
aizan
Mentor
if i had decades of experience judging exposure, the m2 would top my list, too. but what's boring about good exposure?
Marc-A.
I Shoot Film
Thanks Tom for that post!
nikola
Well-known
Beautiful writing!
V
varjag
Guest
Great story Tom!
Do you modify your M2s for Rapidwinders? My understanding was that the original brass geartrain is not sturdy enough?
Do you modify your M2s for Rapidwinders? My understanding was that the original brass geartrain is not sturdy enough?
laptoprob
back to basics
Always nice to hear Tom's stories.
My own M2 got a new curtains, but I am taking the M4-2 and the CLE cycling for the coming weeks. No big difference between those two, but the M4-2 is somewhat lighter in weight. And it can do fill-in flash. Maybe I will need that.
My own M2 got a new curtains, but I am taking the M4-2 and the CLE cycling for the coming weeks. No big difference between those two, but the M4-2 is somewhat lighter in weight. And it can do fill-in flash. Maybe I will need that.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
If the M2 is too loud it could simply be too much tension on the shutter springs. They are supposed to be silky smooth and quiet. Probably time for the service. I find that sometimes technicians put too much tension on the system and it goes "clack" at the end of the exposure. An appropriate cough can mask it!
The drive in the M2 will take the Rapidwinder without modification. The hardened gears in the MP and the M2 Mot was a bit of Leica overkill. This was for press shooters in the 50/60's who considered 10-15 rolls a day being normal fare!
An old M1 of mine was used as a copy camera for many years and when i had it resurrected the service guy said " it has probably had between 1million and 1.5 million shots through it. Thats as many rolls it takes to wear a groove in the pressure plate!". I looked at the gear train and it had wear in it, but not even enough to warrant replacing it!
The advantage of the brass gear is that it is self-lubricating as the brass is softer and will "adjust" to each other. The case hardened steel gear is tough, but it will wear if it is not properly "lubed" and if you get dust or sand in the camera, it will wear quickly (and noisily). The new MP has tougher gear than the older M6 cameras, but I suspect that Leica matches this geartrain and it is remarkably smooth, even out of the box. With the advent of CNC machining you can make these gears with a tolerance and consistency that is virtually impossible with "hand made" gears. In the olden days, you had to "lap" the gears with grinding compound to match them properly.
I find that most Leicas need a couple of 100 rolls through tem to smooth out the action. the exception is the new MP which is pretty smooth from the start. Just wish that they would make me a MP with only 35 and 75 frame in it. Cant stand the mixed 50/75 finder!
The drive in the M2 will take the Rapidwinder without modification. The hardened gears in the MP and the M2 Mot was a bit of Leica overkill. This was for press shooters in the 50/60's who considered 10-15 rolls a day being normal fare!
An old M1 of mine was used as a copy camera for many years and when i had it resurrected the service guy said " it has probably had between 1million and 1.5 million shots through it. Thats as many rolls it takes to wear a groove in the pressure plate!". I looked at the gear train and it had wear in it, but not even enough to warrant replacing it!
The advantage of the brass gear is that it is self-lubricating as the brass is softer and will "adjust" to each other. The case hardened steel gear is tough, but it will wear if it is not properly "lubed" and if you get dust or sand in the camera, it will wear quickly (and noisily). The new MP has tougher gear than the older M6 cameras, but I suspect that Leica matches this geartrain and it is remarkably smooth, even out of the box. With the advent of CNC machining you can make these gears with a tolerance and consistency that is virtually impossible with "hand made" gears. In the olden days, you had to "lap" the gears with grinding compound to match them properly.
I find that most Leicas need a couple of 100 rolls through tem to smooth out the action. the exception is the new MP which is pretty smooth from the start. Just wish that they would make me a MP with only 35 and 75 frame in it. Cant stand the mixed 50/75 finder!
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
aizan said:
There is nothing boring per se with good exposures, but there are no surprises either! Sometimes I find that we are obsessed with correctly exposed shots and that achiving these takes to much time (fiddling with aperture rings and speed dials) rather than shoot "now". It sometimes is akin to "chimping" the digital. Far to often you see digital shooters staring at the back of the camera, whilst the really good shots are happening in front of them!
Bosk
Make photos, not war.
Just wanted to say I really enjoy reading your posts Tom, it's amazing just how much there is to know about Leica M cameras and hearing about all the little differences between the models, their individual foibles and characteristics is something I never grow tired of.
I've also picked the M2 as my M-camera, I guess partly because it feels so much nicer in the hand than the M4-2/MP/M6 and even the MP. (though the MP is awesome for a modern camera)
The "purity" of just the three 35/50/90 framelines that you mention is also something I value very highly, though I sometimes wish the 90 could be substituted for a 75 as I'd really like to try one of those 75 Voigtlanders which I've read great things about but I'm not a fan of acessory viewfinders.
There's definately something special about shooting with the M2 that I haven't felt with any other camera, particularly when -exactly as you put it- I stop fussing over nailing the exposure and try to mentally involve myself in what's happening around me, in a "Zen" sense.
In a wierd sort of way, the M2 makes me want to go out there and "just shoot" without caring what my pictures look like, simply for the pleasure of using the camera - it's almost too nice a camera sometimes!
I love this new Coffee With The Experts format (great concept I think) and look forward to reading more of your posts down the line Tom.
I've also picked the M2 as my M-camera, I guess partly because it feels so much nicer in the hand than the M4-2/MP/M6 and even the MP. (though the MP is awesome for a modern camera)
The "purity" of just the three 35/50/90 framelines that you mention is also something I value very highly, though I sometimes wish the 90 could be substituted for a 75 as I'd really like to try one of those 75 Voigtlanders which I've read great things about but I'm not a fan of acessory viewfinders.
There's definately something special about shooting with the M2 that I haven't felt with any other camera, particularly when -exactly as you put it- I stop fussing over nailing the exposure and try to mentally involve myself in what's happening around me, in a "Zen" sense.
In a wierd sort of way, the M2 makes me want to go out there and "just shoot" without caring what my pictures look like, simply for the pleasure of using the camera - it's almost too nice a camera sometimes!
I love this new Coffee With The Experts format (great concept I think) and look forward to reading more of your posts down the line Tom.
HSI
The Fourth
I have a frankenstein of a camera.
A M3 with the M2 viewfinder.
I love the camera dearly, very solid, classy, a no frills workhorse.
Now Tom, I have a question. With the replacement of the viewfinder in a Leica M camera,
is it possible just to replace the viewfinder and leave the original rangefinder unit intact?
Mine has the marks on the RF patch found in the M2.
Yet it still retains the M3 film counter and windows.
So would this mean its a complete overhaul of the view system?
Heres the beast.
A M3 with the M2 viewfinder.
I love the camera dearly, very solid, classy, a no frills workhorse.
Now Tom, I have a question. With the replacement of the viewfinder in a Leica M camera,
is it possible just to replace the viewfinder and leave the original rangefinder unit intact?
Mine has the marks on the RF patch found in the M2.
Yet it still retains the M3 film counter and windows.
So would this mean its a complete overhaul of the view system?
Heres the beast.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
>The chrome is worn through at the rewind (more than a roll a year here), the >shutter speed dial has the typical "press" shooters tell tale "dents" at 1/50 (flash) >and 1/250 and 1/500. The rest of the shutter speed dial flange is "mint".
Hi Tom -
I'm sitting here looking at my well worn, but beloved M2 and am trying to image what those 'dents' on the shutter speed dial look like. Can you elaborate?
I have six M bodies. 2 x M4, M4-2, M6ttl, M7 and the M2. All are well worn. It took about 300 for the M6ttl to break in. The M2 is by far the most tactile and smoothest of the bunch. Even smoother than the M4. It's difficult to describe, but you feel most 'wired' to the M2.
Oddly enough the only other camera that feels like that is my IIIc.
Now all I need is a few spare spools. Reloading under the gun is a PIA. ;-)
HL
Hi Tom -
I'm sitting here looking at my well worn, but beloved M2 and am trying to image what those 'dents' on the shutter speed dial look like. Can you elaborate?
I have six M bodies. 2 x M4, M4-2, M6ttl, M7 and the M2. All are well worn. It took about 300 for the M6ttl to break in. The M2 is by far the most tactile and smoothest of the bunch. Even smoother than the M4. It's difficult to describe, but you feel most 'wired' to the M2.
Oddly enough the only other camera that feels like that is my IIIc.
Now all I need is a few spare spools. Reloading under the gun is a PIA. ;-)
HL
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
I have had some of these M3 to M2 conversions over the years. If my memory serves me right, you have to remove the whole rangefinder assembly due to the more complex prism of the M3 and then instal the M2 finder. You will also need to machine part of the inside cover plate to accomodate the M2 finder.
the M3 finder is very complex, a solid prism with the 50 frame permanently engraved in it. It is a laminate with two pieces held together with Canada balsam, which can go yellow or simply split apart with age. The actual rangefinder part with its movable prism is also different as the frame line masks are different. These masks are small, very thin plates with "slots" cut into them and as you mount a lens an arm in the lens- mount will shift these masks and the slots will give you the correct lines.
The M2 has three of these combinations (35/50/90) and these masks are 'single", one for each focal length while the M3 only has two (90/135) as the 50 is fixed in place.
Often these M3 conversions were made so that the user could keep the automatic film counter mechanism and sometimes simply because the M3 finder assembly was too expensive.
The first of these conversions happened when the Leica MP came out in 1957. This was a limited edition, about 418 of them designed for press photographers. The drive was different, Case hardened steel gears and the long shaft from the M2 as well as the M2 filmcounter. The finder was the M3 50/90/135 version but many photographers asked to have it converted to M2's 35/50/90 as that was their standard "kit".
Does your M3 have a M2 take up spool shaft on it? This is the long shaft that almost extends to the base plate, rather than the 'stubby" M3 shaft. This was another of Leica's conversions offered in the 50's and early 60's. This allowed you to put a Leicavit MP on your M3.
the M3 finder is very complex, a solid prism with the 50 frame permanently engraved in it. It is a laminate with two pieces held together with Canada balsam, which can go yellow or simply split apart with age. The actual rangefinder part with its movable prism is also different as the frame line masks are different. These masks are small, very thin plates with "slots" cut into them and as you mount a lens an arm in the lens- mount will shift these masks and the slots will give you the correct lines.
The M2 has three of these combinations (35/50/90) and these masks are 'single", one for each focal length while the M3 only has two (90/135) as the 50 is fixed in place.
Often these M3 conversions were made so that the user could keep the automatic film counter mechanism and sometimes simply because the M3 finder assembly was too expensive.
The first of these conversions happened when the Leica MP came out in 1957. This was a limited edition, about 418 of them designed for press photographers. The drive was different, Case hardened steel gears and the long shaft from the M2 as well as the M2 filmcounter. The finder was the M3 50/90/135 version but many photographers asked to have it converted to M2's 35/50/90 as that was their standard "kit".
Does your M3 have a M2 take up spool shaft on it? This is the long shaft that almost extends to the base plate, rather than the 'stubby" M3 shaft. This was another of Leica's conversions offered in the 50's and early 60's. This allowed you to put a Leicavit MP on your M3.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Harry, the "tell tale" dents on the shutter speed dial are just at the bottom of the flange. When you put the M2 rewind arm back into 'sleeper mode" - the shutter speed dial works as the stop. The all metal arm does dent this flange and you can 'analyze" what kind of use the camera has had. If the dent is substantial when the speed dial is put at B or 1 second, you probably have a camera that has been used for copy work and most likely has had 10 000's of rolls going through it!
The "press" tell tales tend to be when the marks are at 1/50 for flash and 1/250, 1/500 as these guys used triX/HP5/HPS and other "speed films". The amateur didn't really have to worry about this and usually shot slow color film (kodachrome at ASA 10 !) and they usually did not rip through 10-15 rolls a day either.
To find the marks, put the shutter speed dial to what ever speed you suspect it has been used most at and look where the arm hits the flange on the shutter speed dial.
One of these days I will figure out how to download an image on to this site. Tuulikki's little Ricoh GRD can do close ups (1.5 cm) and then I post the dents!
The "press" tell tales tend to be when the marks are at 1/50 for flash and 1/250, 1/500 as these guys used triX/HP5/HPS and other "speed films". The amateur didn't really have to worry about this and usually shot slow color film (kodachrome at ASA 10 !) and they usually did not rip through 10-15 rolls a day either.
To find the marks, put the shutter speed dial to what ever speed you suspect it has been used most at and look where the arm hits the flange on the shutter speed dial.
One of these days I will figure out how to download an image on to this site. Tuulikki's little Ricoh GRD can do close ups (1.5 cm) and then I post the dents!