justins7
Well-known
(some ramblings.)
In the new Popular Photography magazine there is a big article on the Epson digital rangefinder. It calls it "retro" or "nostalgic" (I can't remember which -- I read it quickly), which really pisses me off.
Why is it that any product that is not couch-potato-automated, that doesn't require an absurd amount of electronics and buttons, is branded "retro"? Is the act of walking retro because it's not driving an S.U.V.? In the future will eating be retro when most people will be using brain-digi-Pizza-Hut-downloads? Is a hammer nostalgic because it doesn't use batteries?
For me the appeal of rangefinders (and presumably a digital one) is simplicity -- a tool that functions for its purpose. These are only nostalgic in so far as these elements are were de rigeur fifty years ago.
It just sickens me that in general this culture cannot accept things that require some thought or work. People look at me weirdly all the time for these things. It's pathetic, epecially for an artistic tool that must fight to shed adsurd accoutrements. The jokes on them, for using a bulbous, over-designed camera for taking a simple shot of a squooshy baby. A Brownie Box camera could do the same, with no features at all.
"Popular Photography" is such a crass, infomercial mouthpiece for both the industry and consumer madness.
Give us a digital rangefinder, and leave us alone.
It will only get worse.
I am not a luddite.
In the new Popular Photography magazine there is a big article on the Epson digital rangefinder. It calls it "retro" or "nostalgic" (I can't remember which -- I read it quickly), which really pisses me off.
Why is it that any product that is not couch-potato-automated, that doesn't require an absurd amount of electronics and buttons, is branded "retro"? Is the act of walking retro because it's not driving an S.U.V.? In the future will eating be retro when most people will be using brain-digi-Pizza-Hut-downloads? Is a hammer nostalgic because it doesn't use batteries?
For me the appeal of rangefinders (and presumably a digital one) is simplicity -- a tool that functions for its purpose. These are only nostalgic in so far as these elements are were de rigeur fifty years ago.
It just sickens me that in general this culture cannot accept things that require some thought or work. People look at me weirdly all the time for these things. It's pathetic, epecially for an artistic tool that must fight to shed adsurd accoutrements. The jokes on them, for using a bulbous, over-designed camera for taking a simple shot of a squooshy baby. A Brownie Box camera could do the same, with no features at all.
"Popular Photography" is such a crass, infomercial mouthpiece for both the industry and consumer madness.
Give us a digital rangefinder, and leave us alone.
It will only get worse.
I am not a luddite.
R
RML
Guest
Up to a point I have to agree with you. Indeed it seems that most manufacturers can no longer design a camera that is digital in its capturing but "analog" in its handling. I'm not saying that the current "modern" designs, loaded with buttons and dials, is bad. I reckon that most new consumers (mainly the younger generations, and those to come) will grow up with these designs and find them utterly useful. I (and with me probably most here on RFF), however, don't see or feel the need for tons of features that only get in the way of my photographic experience. But be fair, you didn't learn overnight to use all these aperture and shutter settings, their uses and limitations, etc? Or did you? 
I'm really looking forward to the Epson R-D1, and I'll probably be very tempted to buy one (if the price is right!). I don't mind digital capturing of the shots but I've been searching high and low for yours for a conventional "retro" digital camera.
I'm really looking forward to the Epson R-D1, and I'll probably be very tempted to buy one (if the price is right!). I don't mind digital capturing of the shots but I've been searching high and low for yours for a conventional "retro" digital camera.
justins7
Well-known
I am not only talking about buttons or digital in itself. I just think, like everything, people are treated like babies.
I also use a Canon S50 digital camera. Oddly it took me two weeks to find the self timer. I'm sure most people just don't use it at all. Am I a baby?
There's gotta be some room for brain activity.
I know that most people can't be expected to have that photographic knowledge, but stop calling it retro if someone DOES have that knowledge.
I also use a Canon S50 digital camera. Oddly it took me two weeks to find the self timer. I'm sure most people just don't use it at all. Am I a baby?
There's gotta be some room for brain activity.
I know that most people can't be expected to have that photographic knowledge, but stop calling it retro if someone DOES have that knowledge.
ZeissFan
Mentor
The one thing that bothers me about Pop Photo is their continuing attempt to use modern vernacular.
The frequent use of "ain't" in their magazine is atrocious and should be stopped immediately.
The magazine tries very hard to sound hip but in the end comes off as merely crude.
I long for the days when it was professionally written and edited.
On the other hand, the British photo magazines that I've bought are a real pleasure to read. The articles are clear, concise and avoid the unnecessary use of jargon and popular phrases.
The frequent use of "ain't" in their magazine is atrocious and should be stopped immediately.
The magazine tries very hard to sound hip but in the end comes off as merely crude.
I long for the days when it was professionally written and edited.
On the other hand, the British photo magazines that I've bought are a real pleasure to read. The articles are clear, concise and avoid the unnecessary use of jargon and popular phrases.
Herb Keppler did a great article on the Bessa R and Konica RF when they came out a few years ago. His article compared the RF finder with the SLR, wide-angle lenses for RF vs retro-focus, and had quite a few favorable things to say. Pop Photo also ran good reviews of the two camera when they were new, and the Voigtlander lenses were given very high ratings. Like any magazine, it has many writers and reviewers. I miss Jason Schneider's (then) monthly camera collecting articles and more detailed reviews of years ago, and stopped subscribing in 2001. I still keep my '70s and '80s copies.
I found out years ago that AF cameras (my N70 and Nikon 500) were awful for squooshy baby pictures because of the AF latency and distracting noise made while the camera's motors whirred and banged. The SP, M3, and Canon 7 are great for squooshy baby picture as they have are low-latency, are quiet, have low vibration, and have fast lenses for existing light photography.
I found out years ago that AF cameras (my N70 and Nikon 500) were awful for squooshy baby pictures because of the AF latency and distracting noise made while the camera's motors whirred and banged. The SP, M3, and Canon 7 are great for squooshy baby picture as they have are low-latency, are quiet, have low vibration, and have fast lenses for existing light photography.
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
I didn't have too much of a problem with the notion of fully automated cameras. All I have to do is think about the way our elders reacted to the things we like; they were probably wondering what was in our music, our gadgets, our tapes ("when you have a good vinyl record any silly casette tape can go out the window") and try to see how this "advancement" will look in ten years. Some AF cameras are already that old, like the initial Nikon N-series (N2000, N50 and the like), and also suddenly touted as "classics" of "remarkable performance."
In other words, in our younger days, or if we were younger, we'd be enjoying this level of automation.
Two weeks ago, I was in the Chicago Blues Fest with my Leica and a 1936 Elmar lens, when a girl sitting next to me finally decided to ask "what kind of camera is that?". I said it was a Leica rangefinder (that word lost her).
"Is that all manual? I mean you advance the film and you rewind it?" She had a strange look in her eyes.
"Yes, you do it all: advance film, set the exposure, shoot and rewind at the end."
"Wow... that must be interesting..."
"You bet" I was going to say, but then I decided to forget about it. With some luck she'll tell some friends how she saw a weird guy with an old-fashioned camera the same way she was telling her friend at the fest how another acquaintance of hers likes to bike around naked on hot nights.
Now... if you want to get people's attention, carry a TLR with!
In other words, in our younger days, or if we were younger, we'd be enjoying this level of automation.
Two weeks ago, I was in the Chicago Blues Fest with my Leica and a 1936 Elmar lens, when a girl sitting next to me finally decided to ask "what kind of camera is that?". I said it was a Leica rangefinder (that word lost her).
"Is that all manual? I mean you advance the film and you rewind it?" She had a strange look in her eyes.
"Yes, you do it all: advance film, set the exposure, shoot and rewind at the end."
"Wow... that must be interesting..."
"You bet" I was going to say, but then I decided to forget about it. With some luck she'll tell some friends how she saw a weird guy with an old-fashioned camera the same way she was telling her friend at the fest how another acquaintance of hers likes to bike around naked on hot nights.
Now... if you want to get people's attention, carry a TLR with!
Naked Bicycling Francisco?
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
Yep! Apparently, it gets really hot during the summer nights in South Carolina.
Don't ask for further information... I couldn't help overhearing. After all, she was sitting next to me.
Don't ask for further information... I couldn't help overhearing. After all, she was sitting next to me.
Which brings us back on topic.
Oh the things you can capture in low light with those retro cameras, with fast normal lenses and no shutter lag if you are in the right place at the right time.
Oh the things you can capture in low light with those retro cameras, with fast normal lenses and no shutter lag if you are in the right place at the right time.
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
Not to mention that those old retro cameras are distinctively silent: no focusing whirr and snap sounds. Just a discreet click and the job's done.
I think the reason we like old gear is that subconsciously we want to replicate the conditions and techniques of the old masters, who couldn't use auto-everything cameras because there were none in their day. Makes you wonder about the inclinations of photographers to come, when they try to replicate shots taken by today's great shooters. Will they drop their speaking 600 GB digital cameras equipped with 1000mm-range zooms, GPS and portable Photoshop 40, and pick up an old film SLR just because Galen Rockwell used them?
Maybe... It's a kind of lust for the old gold sort of thing. That's why I like Leicas and don't like Ike!
I think the reason we like old gear is that subconsciously we want to replicate the conditions and techniques of the old masters, who couldn't use auto-everything cameras because there were none in their day. Makes you wonder about the inclinations of photographers to come, when they try to replicate shots taken by today's great shooters. Will they drop their speaking 600 GB digital cameras equipped with 1000mm-range zooms, GPS and portable Photoshop 40, and pick up an old film SLR just because Galen Rockwell used them?
Maybe... It's a kind of lust for the old gold sort of thing. That's why I like Leicas and don't like Ike!
I would like to point out that Ike used a Stero Realist, a Rangefinder.
I like my retro-gear for the same reason that I prefer programming in assembly language. I like full control and if I mess-up I only have myself to blame. If a company allows me to do the programming of one of their cameras, I would probably like it. It would have one mode: manual. The N8008 has a software bug in it that will lock up the camera to the point where the off switch does not work and the batteries must be removed from the camera for several minutes. If the last picture is exactly at the end of the roll, the "auto-rewind" never engages, the film does not advance, and all functions stop. It is repeatable and systematic. Remember, the only error message that a user needs is a locked keyboard and a blank screen. Nikon sure did!
I like my retro-gear for the same reason that I prefer programming in assembly language. I like full control and if I mess-up I only have myself to blame. If a company allows me to do the programming of one of their cameras, I would probably like it. It would have one mode: manual. The N8008 has a software bug in it that will lock up the camera to the point where the off switch does not work and the batteries must be removed from the camera for several minutes. If the last picture is exactly at the end of the roll, the "auto-rewind" never engages, the film does not advance, and all functions stop. It is repeatable and systematic. Remember, the only error message that a user needs is a locked keyboard and a blank screen. Nikon sure did!
JohnM
Well-known
Speaking only for myself, I just enjoy using old camera gear. I could not care less if someone drops the "retro" label on it or anything else. Sometimes, it just applies - if anything else, I consider it a sign that people are starting to appreciate the way things were built back in the day.
The appeal to me is not necessarily simplicity, but control, quiet and durabilty - no motors, no polycarbonates and no computer chips running the show. There's an elegance (or nostalgia?) to using them.
Of course, I love new camera gear as well - my Olympus 35RD fits perfectly into the camera case of my Digital Rebel and I have a SureShot s50 tucked into the camera case of my old manual Vivitar 450/SLD.
The appeal to me is not necessarily simplicity, but control, quiet and durabilty - no motors, no polycarbonates and no computer chips running the show. There's an elegance (or nostalgia?) to using them.
Of course, I love new camera gear as well - my Olympus 35RD fits perfectly into the camera case of my Digital Rebel and I have a SureShot s50 tucked into the camera case of my old manual Vivitar 450/SLD.
pvdhaar
Peter
Re: retro, nostalgic nonsense. Long diatribe.
Which is an odd observation, because these retro-nostalgic rangefinders (but the same holds for a mechanical SLR) actually require LESS thought and work.
Point in case are the current crop of camera's which are driven by multi-layered menus. You've got to be a whiz to comprehend all the interactions between all the settings.
Untill about two years ago, I had a Nikon F80. It was completely impossible to understand what the combined result was of the auto focus selector on the front (S,C,M) on the back ([.],[+]), the 'nintendo' pad and custom functions nine and ten (blah blah priority in blah blah mode). Now, THAT required some thought.
I only think the purpose of this whole caboodle was to impress your friends: "hey guys look at this cam.. it's got more stuff in it than a space shuttle".
So, I'll have to agree: it will only get worse.
justins7 said:
Which is an odd observation, because these retro-nostalgic rangefinders (but the same holds for a mechanical SLR) actually require LESS thought and work.
Point in case are the current crop of camera's which are driven by multi-layered menus. You've got to be a whiz to comprehend all the interactions between all the settings.
Untill about two years ago, I had a Nikon F80. It was completely impossible to understand what the combined result was of the auto focus selector on the front (S,C,M) on the back ([.],[+]), the 'nintendo' pad and custom functions nine and ten (blah blah priority in blah blah mode). Now, THAT required some thought.
I only think the purpose of this whole caboodle was to impress your friends: "hey guys look at this cam.. it's got more stuff in it than a space shuttle".
So, I'll have to agree: it will only get worse.
oftheherd
Mentor
A couple or three years ago I acquired an ST801 with a working Vivitar 35-85mm Series 1 zoom (variable focus). I had wanted an ST801 for years but they have just held their value too well. My daughter had finally been expressing an interest in photography so I let her use it. She fell in love with it and still has it. It is her "professional" camera. What is interesting to her and me is the reaction of many of her friends. They also seem to equate having to know things photographic to use a camera as professional. Go figure. She also loves the Fujica 43-75mm zoom. She could weld it on there I think. Even though I have given her a 50mm prime and a couple more zooms.
As for me, I have a choice of many cameras, and use several of them on a fairly regular basis. That is from "retro" Welta's to my Mamiya Super Press 23 to P&S cameras. The one that is consistantly with me is my Welta Welti and a Gossen Luna Pro meter. You have to determine and set exposure, distance, perspective; all those things many have given up. I just like it. I think maybe it is a combination of nostalgia and control. That is, I know I can do it and enjoy doing so.
I don't think it is any surprise that most in this forum feel similar things. Why else enjoy the types of rangefinders that most here have and use consistantly? For those that take their enjoyment from making photos with a camera that makes all their decisions for them, good for them. There is art to photography no matter the equipment. But for me, I am unlikely to go beyond aperture control for automation, and don't expect to give up my all manual cameras ever. It is just too much fun (If any of the above makes sense).
As for me, I have a choice of many cameras, and use several of them on a fairly regular basis. That is from "retro" Welta's to my Mamiya Super Press 23 to P&S cameras. The one that is consistantly with me is my Welta Welti and a Gossen Luna Pro meter. You have to determine and set exposure, distance, perspective; all those things many have given up. I just like it. I think maybe it is a combination of nostalgia and control. That is, I know I can do it and enjoy doing so.
I don't think it is any surprise that most in this forum feel similar things. Why else enjoy the types of rangefinders that most here have and use consistantly? For those that take their enjoyment from making photos with a camera that makes all their decisions for them, good for them. There is art to photography no matter the equipment. But for me, I am unlikely to go beyond aperture control for automation, and don't expect to give up my all manual cameras ever. It is just too much fun (If any of the above makes sense).
guinness
Member
Rangefinders are retro, it's the whole reason that I bought one, most everything else is either a P&S or SLR (film and digital). There are things that I like about an older rangfinder, it's made of metal for one thing, manual controls, and the feeling of being different.
Some people prefer automation, some mechanical, others like me, prefer both.
There are a lot of things I like about digital and automation, I'm not afraid to waste several shots trying to get a good picture and I love the instant gratification of digital. I can print the pictures I want and Photoshop is one the greatest programs I have used.
But i also don't want to limited to specific systems, they all have their place.
Someday, I'll probably even get around to trying medium format, and might even use a TLR. Have to expand my horizons.
Some people prefer automation, some mechanical, others like me, prefer both.
There are a lot of things I like about digital and automation, I'm not afraid to waste several shots trying to get a good picture and I love the instant gratification of digital. I can print the pictures I want and Photoshop is one the greatest programs I have used.
But i also don't want to limited to specific systems, they all have their place.
Someday, I'll probably even get around to trying medium format, and might even use a TLR. Have to expand my horizons.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Personally I like my FM2n and would buy a digital version if it operated the same way as the film version. A digital rangefinder would be nice also if it too operated in the same old retro way. Until that happens I'll stick with the old stuff which is a joy to use. There is something to be said for the KISS system of the oldies.
Taipei-metro
Mentor
First, Pop photo is a joke.
Grossman and Resnick are running the show now,both will crop your photos.
Retro or not,Epson is trying to lure old photographers to digital.Buy it or not the digital train is going to run you over with your(not you J-7) barking or not.
Generalations X,Y,Z,couldn't care less about F-stops,shutter speeds, DOF,TTL,Bokeh("in and out of conscience"more or less means in Japanese Kanji) .US digital market is like automobile market of China; wide open!
Fuji Frontier will print from your digital medium for 12 cents each with excellent quality.Film?we don't do films no more.
Epson is Seiko Sha,retro is their business.
Off the topic:
Watched the closing ceremony of the Olympic game,totally moved by the Chinese rendition of the folk song"Jasmine Flowers"(Puccini borrowed it's melody in Turandot),my mother used to pick jasmine flowers for a tea factory as a young girl and I still buy dried jasmine flowers to put in my olon tea.
see you in Beijing!
Grossman and Resnick are running the show now,both will crop your photos.
Retro or not,Epson is trying to lure old photographers to digital.Buy it or not the digital train is going to run you over with your(not you J-7) barking or not.
Generalations X,Y,Z,couldn't care less about F-stops,shutter speeds, DOF,TTL,Bokeh("in and out of conscience"more or less means in Japanese Kanji) .US digital market is like automobile market of China; wide open!
Fuji Frontier will print from your digital medium for 12 cents each with excellent quality.Film?we don't do films no more.
Epson is Seiko Sha,retro is their business.
Off the topic:
Watched the closing ceremony of the Olympic game,totally moved by the Chinese rendition of the folk song"Jasmine Flowers"(Puccini borrowed it's melody in Turandot),my mother used to pick jasmine flowers for a tea factory as a young girl and I still buy dried jasmine flowers to put in my olon tea.
see you in Beijing!