Seeing outside the frame

I'm curious, do people with glasses see much outside the frame, either with (say) a 50mm frameline in a Leica, or with a brightline finder? I use the big Voigtlander 35mm finder on my Bessa-T, but it's not like I can get my eye close enough to see a ton outside the framelines. If I'm not centered then I'll see outside one edge, but won't be able to see the other.

I think there's much to be said for keeping the other eye open, when using a camera where this works. At least until the moment of critical framing. It's like when your SLR closes down the aperture to take the shot, except it's your brain closing down your other eye!
 
Godfrey said:
... I just open my other eye to see outside the viewfinder view. Easy.
I do shoot a good bit of street.
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Same for me... but that only works for things moving into the frame from the left. :D All of my cameras have the left side VF. I've learned to anticipate from the right and I'm very quick to put the camera to my eye.
 
I used film M`s for twenty years but have never once seen the benefit of seeing outside of the frame as enabled by an RF .
I just keep my other eye open .

I much prefer EVF these days and use them in the same way .... keep both eyes open .
 
The case for no viewfinder at all: Many among us love their high-quality compact "point and shoots" (Ricoh gr's, Nikon Coolpix, Fuji X70/10} including Daido Moriyama. See the world with eyes wide open; find the frame with the LCD floating in the space in front of you, as a director would with a framing card or fingers formed into a rectangle.

In the right conditions, I do this often with a Fuji XE2s/27mm setup. Perhaps not ideal for storytellers and journalists, it's a great way to find the unusual amidst the ordinary or a composition where none seems to exist. Liberated from the tyranny of the viewfinder, you just make pictures.
 
Greg Maslak said:
The case for no viewfinder at all: Many among us love their high-quality compact "point and shoots" (Ricoh gr's, Nikon Coolpix, Fuji X70/10} including Daido Moriyama. See the world with eyes wide open; find the frame with the LCD floating in the space in front of you, as a director would with a framing card or fingers formed into a rectangle.

In the right conditions, I do this often with a Fuji XE2s/27mm setup. Perhaps not ideal for storytellers and journalists, it's a great way to find the unusual amidst the ordinary or a composition where none seems to exist. Liberated from the tyranny of the viewfinder, you just make pictures.
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I don't think Daido shoots with an LCD screen very often, my understanding is that he still uses a P&S viewfinder most of the time. But there is something to be said for using a screen on a small camera - it doesn't necessarily take you out of the reality going on around you, providing you're not just looking at the screen full time.

Generally, I don't like viewing the scene full-time through whatever framing device is available. Even though I'm not very good at it, I prefer to anticipate the decisive moment and pop the camera up to my eye at the last second. Some photographers like to survey and await the scene changing through their viewfinder, but I always feel like it makes me too conspicuous.
 
I wrote the below on another forum, these are kind of my thoughts about viewfinders.

I've used a lot of LCD screens and viewfinders of various kinds over the years. In fact you could say that the only thing my choices in cameras owned proves on this point is that I haven't made up my mind at all. However, I realized the other day that I can sort of put my feelings into words. Interested if anyone else feels the same way here.

The camera is a transition tool between the scene and the resulting photograph. Its compositional aid (OVF/EVF, LCD) gives a certain connection. Optical viewfinders don't represent the image, they represent the scene. So in a way, an optical viewfinder usually provides connection with the scene. Bigger, brighter viewfinders do a better job, while small viewfinders with small magnification levels can have the opposite effect, until you get down to some of the tiny compact 35mm camera finders, which are an active disconnection from the scene. In effect, you're peering through a small, distorted box and while they work for a framing tool, the effect on your consciousness is of being disconnected, to an extent.

Of course, the optical viewfinder has a sort of battle of information to include to help out the photographer. SLRs are the most exact, rangefinders often let you see what's just outside the frame, hotshoe finders tell you nothing about the camera's rendering but still offer a sort of connectedness to the scene. You still feel the interaction with the world around you, less like you're interacting with the resulting image or the electronic box that's making the image. A hotshoe finder works pretty well on my Bessa-T with B&W film that has a ton of latitude, and I am usually zone focusing.

An electronic viewfinder, by comparison, takes you further out of the scene but offers connectedness with the image. A good, large, detailed and accurate EVF gives you a pretty good representation of the resulting image. You're no longer looking at reality, but at your result. EVFs are great for tricky lighting, or any work where you're more concerned with the result than your own interactivity with the scene. Now, bad EVFs don't show as accurate a representation of the final image, due to poor color rendition, graininess or low resolution, distortion or other issues. These are like being at a double remove: you're removed from both the scene (peering at a screen, not the world), plus seeing an inaccurate representation of the image.

Now, interestingly, I find LCD screens are kind of a useful compromise. Because you're not peering into a narrow view which obscures the rest of the world, you still have some connectedness to the scene. Your attention is focused on the camera, so it's not true connectedness, but it's closer than with an EVF because of your peripheral knowledge of what's going on. Plus, the LCD gives a very accurate representation of the image, providing decent connectedness to it, minus whatever visibility issues the LCD may have in bright light. Of course, there are also ergonomics, for example, a heavier camera or lens makes the act of holding a camera to look at the LCD quite cumbersome. But for a small camera, I find I do actually feel more comfortable with my connection to both the image and the scene.
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The ultimate outside the frame finders are the SBOOI and the Kontur.

After spending a lifetime working in science and building gadgets I retired.
To keep hands and brain busy one of my projects was to make a digital version Kontur finder. Got a tiny screen to display frames lines, added suitable optics, and as the saying goes, Voila!
I'd always hoped to see Tom A. and see what he thought and how to proceed. I was in poor health at the time, then we lost Tom so the project never got up to speed.

I think what started the project was trying to photograph birds in flight with a long lens on a DSLR. Just finding the target is difficult. There's a good reason telescopic sights aren't used on shotguns. I know that Nikon puts data on one of the hot shoe pins that gives lens, focal length and focus distance. This is used to control Nikon flash heads making them zoom in sync with a lens. Combine some clever software and a zoomable , parallax corrected Kontur finder becomes possible.

An idea that needs more effort than I can afford to throw at it at present.
For anyone who is curious about Kontur finders I posted a few lines in another thread recently. You can simulate the effect with an M or Fuji X100 , XPro.

Using a 0.72 finder and Kounturized 35mm frame while using a 50mm on camera has real potential.

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3019483#post3019483



Glenn
 
Greg Maslak said:
The case for no viewfinder at all: Many among us love their high-quality compact "point and shoots" (Ricoh gr's, Nikon Coolpix, Fuji X70/10} including Daido Moriyama.
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Even when Moriyama used the film Ricoh GR he didn't seem to look through the viewfinder much in the videos I've seen. ;) AND LCDs are viewfinders! They are framing tools that show you what you are viewing. Unfortunately for me...LCDs aren't feasible for me right now for two reasons. The sun is way too bright in Chile and I can't see up close (like an LCD) with my glasses on.
 
One of the things I like about my X-Pro1 is that when I need exact framing, especially for close shots, I can switch to the EVF with a finger.

Most of the time I use the OVF, which shows a bit more than the actual resulting image and often that’s good enough to see surrounding details.

Decades ago I developed the habit of closing my left eye while looking through a camera - I’m trying to break that habit now by keeping both eyes open.
 
Both eyes open worked for me with Nikkor 50E lens and small FG-20. It was not so much different from M3, if not better... giving price factor. :).
Will check with EM and older lens. If oldie will mount on.

Don't know why Ricoh is not implementing same thing as in the Q...
It would be cool to see it on the screen with frames.
Wait...
I think brightlines VFs were replaced with screens instead of any VFs. You are kind of looking at the screen, but still could see what is in-front of you in much wider perspective. Like classic :) most common picture taking process of theses days via mobile phone. You are holding the phone in-front of you to take family picture, of course you are going to see how mother-in-law is approaching into the the frame. :)
 
There is a problem with leaving your left eye open when shooting for some of us. I'm left eye dominant but I use my right eye for the viewfinder. I'm right hand dominant so that started when I was a kid from the time I was learning to shoot a BB gun and a rifle--unless you shoot left-handed, it's uncomfortable to use your left eye. At least for me. So I learned to close my left eye as I brought the rifle up to my shoulder. I do the same with a camera.

If I leave my left eye open, it tends to dominate. As is normal. Close eye and all is fine.
 
jsrockit said:
Same for me... but that only works for things moving into the frame from the left. :D All of my cameras have the left side VF. I've learned to anticipate from the right and I'm very quick to put the camera to my eye.
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I seem to be able to see a whole scene nicely, regardless of the position of the viewfinder. Perhaps it has to do with how tightly to your face you're holding the camera. I can't hold the camera too closely since I wear glasses.

The same technique works well when I'm shooting with a long lens at a motor racing event. Leaving my off-eye open lets me see what's coming up so I can target the narrow view of the long lens appropriately.

G
 
Glenn2 said:
The ultimate outside the frame finders are the SBOOI and the Kontur.

...
Click to expand...

I agree: I have the Kontur for my Perkeo II ... It is a superb viewfinder! I let my left eye create the finder field and my right eye look at the scene ... the merge is perfect. Much better than the small optical tunnel VF in the camera. I still don't find myself "looking outside the frame" very much, however. I pretty much know what I am looking for when I put the camera to my eye and concentrate on that. :)

G
 
Leica made two sports finders or frame finders. The earlier one worked with lenses from 35mm to 135mm; the later one only had 50, 90, and 135. There is an excellent article in Macfilos - May of last year - about a press photographer's use of them in the 1950s. He rightly pointed out that being able to see the surrounding scene is not only helpful but in some cases it can prevent injury or save your life. People who shoot sports from the sidelines learn to keep both eyes open - one for the viewfinder and the other looking out for 250-pound tacklers headed your way. It's also important if you're shooting at the scene of an emergency. Granted, most will not do either, but it's a concern if you do. It can help you frame what might be a better photograph and it can save your life.
 
Considering how long I've used SBOOI, I'm still waiting for the day I can remember to leave the left eye open. According to the missus, it's a successful trip to the store if I return with two of the five things she sends me for - and that's with a list!
 
Checked EM and Nikkormat with 50 lens. True 1:1 with both eyes open. Better than M3 with 50, IMO.
 
Bill, the Fuji X-T4 has something called the Sports Finder mode. It puts a brightline inside the frame, leaving a generous space outside the brightline. I haven't used it yet, but its there.
 
Just looked through the X-T4 manual about the Sports Finder. When using it, the image file is a 1.25X crop of the normal image. Roughly a 20Mp file instead of 26. And I understand that the Sports Finder mode is available on the X-T3 as well.
 
I've used Leica M3's since the 50's!
Not mine. In '66 I purchased 1st M3 for me.
The 50mm lens and frame almost perfect.
"Seeing outside the frame"? Really.
A split second to see intrusions..
M2 was better as 50mm frame way smaller.
Goggles of 35mm magnified and still see sides.

Enter M6.. Frame is wonderful, you better see outside frame,..
because your image is also there..
Later i found the 28mm frame to the very edges of viewfinder,
a 1000th of a Nano-second to see someone or something entering frame.
With dissimilar image sizes of viewfinder and one eye, FORGET IT!
 
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