mynikonf2
OEM
Tom,
I noticed a photo of a black IIIF RD camera on the Uncollectable page @ the CameraQuest web site. Is the black paint original on that camera?
I have been looking to acquire my first rangefinder camera & have been looking at the Nikon SP, S2 & S3. Also I have been looking at Leica M2, M3, MP (the MP is rather pricey) IIIF RD ST & IIIG. So I'm totally confused, I don't know which direction I should go, hence the title "so what now"? The nikons have collector value. Also I've used Nikon SLR's for over thirty years now & am biased towards Nikon. But the main reason I'm thinking about rangefinder cameras is that I want something different. Leica's have a lens choice advantage & build quaility too. Plus they are different from what I am use to. Which way should I go?
I noticed a photo of a black IIIF RD camera on the Uncollectable page @ the CameraQuest web site. Is the black paint original on that camera?
I have been looking to acquire my first rangefinder camera & have been looking at the Nikon SP, S2 & S3. Also I have been looking at Leica M2, M3, MP (the MP is rather pricey) IIIF RD ST & IIIG. So I'm totally confused, I don't know which direction I should go, hence the title "so what now"? The nikons have collector value. Also I've used Nikon SLR's for over thirty years now & am biased towards Nikon. But the main reason I'm thinking about rangefinder cameras is that I want something different. Leica's have a lens choice advantage & build quaility too. Plus they are different from what I am use to. Which way should I go?
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Choices, choices!
Nikon cameras are scarcer on the market and some bring premium prices - but if you are shooting Nikon SLR's, you are used to the focussing direction and that is a factor to consider.
Models like the Nikon S2 (50mm finder only, but one of the best finders of all time) can be had for decent prices -$500 and up and they usually come with a 50mm lens. The 50f1.4 is the one to get here.
The S3 is more expensive, but it does have 35/50/105 frames in the finder (the 35 is a bit of a "search" to find and all the framelines are on at all time). A good user S3 should run $ 900-1000 + the lenses. The 35f2.5 and the 50f1.4 are reasonably priced and the 105f2.5 (big and hevy but Oh so good) would set you back another $ 1000 with some careful shopping. That would be a nice kit and apart from not having a wide angle (Nikon's original 21/25's are pricey) you can always try to chase down a Voigtlander 21/4 SC mount. It is out of production, but they do pop up used at decent prices.
In the Leica line up, the M2 is my favourite, simple and reliable and with the 35/50/90 frames it covers most of what you want. They tend to range from $500 and up too, but the lenses are more expensive as they are M8 compatible and get snapped up quickly. However, there are alternatives, the Voigtlander lenses are very good, sometimes surpassing the Leica offerings as do the Zeiss ZM line.
The M3 is nice, but does limit you to 50/90/135 and in my mind, the 35 focal length is the main reason for a rangefinder!
Later versions. the M4-2/M4-P and M6's are fine to, with the added advantage of the M6 that is has a meter built in. Again, prices go from $700-1200 depending on model/condition.
With the Leica you pay premium for the lenses, sometimes this is warranted (35/2 Summicron's, 50mm Summilux Asph's), but in many cases you pay for the name rather than performance! It would probably cost you another $1000 over the S3 kit to get the 35/50/90 (if they were all Summicrons) and a M2.
Of course there are the Zeiss Ikon ZM camera and various Bessa cameras. However, they are all "modern" and to some extent that "vintage feel" is missing.
The Leica screwmount cameras are fun and truly vintage. However they are all 50+ years old. They are all limited to 50mm finders (except the IIIg with has a 90 mm too). Lens choices are plentiful, but apart from the Voigtlander LTM lenses, they are old and usually suffer from coating damage,haze or scratches. They are also a pain to load! This said, a IIIf in good shape with a 50 collapsible Red Dial Elmar 50f3.5 is most likely the apex of "mechanical" cameras. Dials spin around, things whirr and click and you will probably spend more times playing with it than taking pictures.
The black IIIf on my site is a replica. An original black IIIf would cost upwards of $ 50 000 as they were only made for the Swedish Army and only 125 were made. It had three Crowns engraved on the back. I am thinking of doing 4 crowns on mine and call it "inflation".
One advantage that the Leica's have over the Nikon's (and Canon's rangefinders which can take Leica screwmount lenses) is that there is plenty of service available. The Nikon's can be a bit difficult to fix and service, though I find that they require less of it than my Leicas.
In your situation, I would probably spring for a Nikon S3 and a 50f1.4 and get used to the camera, later add the 35/2,5 and the 105/2.5. If you feel that you need something wider, always keep your eyes peeled at the classifieds here on RFf for a 21 or 25mm VC lens in SC mount.
Hope this helps,
Tom
Nikon cameras are scarcer on the market and some bring premium prices - but if you are shooting Nikon SLR's, you are used to the focussing direction and that is a factor to consider.
Models like the Nikon S2 (50mm finder only, but one of the best finders of all time) can be had for decent prices -$500 and up and they usually come with a 50mm lens. The 50f1.4 is the one to get here.
The S3 is more expensive, but it does have 35/50/105 frames in the finder (the 35 is a bit of a "search" to find and all the framelines are on at all time). A good user S3 should run $ 900-1000 + the lenses. The 35f2.5 and the 50f1.4 are reasonably priced and the 105f2.5 (big and hevy but Oh so good) would set you back another $ 1000 with some careful shopping. That would be a nice kit and apart from not having a wide angle (Nikon's original 21/25's are pricey) you can always try to chase down a Voigtlander 21/4 SC mount. It is out of production, but they do pop up used at decent prices.
In the Leica line up, the M2 is my favourite, simple and reliable and with the 35/50/90 frames it covers most of what you want. They tend to range from $500 and up too, but the lenses are more expensive as they are M8 compatible and get snapped up quickly. However, there are alternatives, the Voigtlander lenses are very good, sometimes surpassing the Leica offerings as do the Zeiss ZM line.
The M3 is nice, but does limit you to 50/90/135 and in my mind, the 35 focal length is the main reason for a rangefinder!
Later versions. the M4-2/M4-P and M6's are fine to, with the added advantage of the M6 that is has a meter built in. Again, prices go from $700-1200 depending on model/condition.
With the Leica you pay premium for the lenses, sometimes this is warranted (35/2 Summicron's, 50mm Summilux Asph's), but in many cases you pay for the name rather than performance! It would probably cost you another $1000 over the S3 kit to get the 35/50/90 (if they were all Summicrons) and a M2.
Of course there are the Zeiss Ikon ZM camera and various Bessa cameras. However, they are all "modern" and to some extent that "vintage feel" is missing.
The Leica screwmount cameras are fun and truly vintage. However they are all 50+ years old. They are all limited to 50mm finders (except the IIIg with has a 90 mm too). Lens choices are plentiful, but apart from the Voigtlander LTM lenses, they are old and usually suffer from coating damage,haze or scratches. They are also a pain to load! This said, a IIIf in good shape with a 50 collapsible Red Dial Elmar 50f3.5 is most likely the apex of "mechanical" cameras. Dials spin around, things whirr and click and you will probably spend more times playing with it than taking pictures.
The black IIIf on my site is a replica. An original black IIIf would cost upwards of $ 50 000 as they were only made for the Swedish Army and only 125 were made. It had three Crowns engraved on the back. I am thinking of doing 4 crowns on mine and call it "inflation".
One advantage that the Leica's have over the Nikon's (and Canon's rangefinders which can take Leica screwmount lenses) is that there is plenty of service available. The Nikon's can be a bit difficult to fix and service, though I find that they require less of it than my Leicas.
In your situation, I would probably spring for a Nikon S3 and a 50f1.4 and get used to the camera, later add the 35/2,5 and the 105/2.5. If you feel that you need something wider, always keep your eyes peeled at the classifieds here on RFf for a 21 or 25mm VC lens in SC mount.
Hope this helps,
Tom
abenner
undecided
One plus in the Nikon direction is the plentiful supply of vintage Nikkor 50/1.4 lenses in great shape to be had for about $300. There's nothing comparable for Leicas, in terms of price, vintage, and quality. Nikon coatings of the day were better and hence older Nikon lenses tend to not have the marks of older Leica glass. Plus, the Nikon 50/1.4 is smaller than a Leica 50/2, and way smaller than any 50mm M lens faster than f2. So despite paying a bit more for a quality Nikon body than you might for a comparable user Leica, if a fast, vintage normal lens is to be part of your kit, the total price for the Nikon set may end up less.
All good points.
A few things not mentioned previously:
- Nikons are easier to load (some can load a Leica M pretty darn fast with practice however)
- There is no Leica with a life-size finder (the M3 comes close at 0.91 of life-size.) This and the effective base length of the rangefinder makes Nikons very accurate focusers with fast telephotos. One can add a viewfinder magnifier to a Leica to increase accuracy but with the possible downside of the wide angle framelines being harder to see.
- Leicas generally have a better defined rangefinder patch. Nikons generally are a bit fuzzy on the edges of the RF patch. Some Nikons have faded RF patches to the point where they are unusable except with zone focus, so make sure you check for this. On the other hand some Leicas have the RF flaring problem; this also seems to be somewhat of an issue on some S3s, but generally not with S2s and SPs.
- S2s have only the 50mm frame, but otherwise its very bright and easy to focus, with the 1:1 view. Add a Voigtlander mini finder for a 28/35/50 set. Ditto for the M3 to get 28/35/50/90/135. Going this route gives you the best of both worlds: a great little wide angle finder, very bright, with bright framelines, plus a high mag for the 50/90/135 focal lengths for telephoto focus accuracy; this is arguably more useful than an M2 because you'll get 28mm too, and you'll have the 0.91 magnification for the longer focal lengths instead of the M2 which has 0.72.
This is essentially how an SP works; there is one (reduced mag) finder for the 28/35, and another 1:1 viewfinder for focusing and for the 50 thru 135 framelines.
Lastly, if you buy right, you can always get your money back out and get something else, whether Nikon or Leica.
A few things not mentioned previously:
- Nikons are easier to load (some can load a Leica M pretty darn fast with practice however)
- There is no Leica with a life-size finder (the M3 comes close at 0.91 of life-size.) This and the effective base length of the rangefinder makes Nikons very accurate focusers with fast telephotos. One can add a viewfinder magnifier to a Leica to increase accuracy but with the possible downside of the wide angle framelines being harder to see.
- Leicas generally have a better defined rangefinder patch. Nikons generally are a bit fuzzy on the edges of the RF patch. Some Nikons have faded RF patches to the point where they are unusable except with zone focus, so make sure you check for this. On the other hand some Leicas have the RF flaring problem; this also seems to be somewhat of an issue on some S3s, but generally not with S2s and SPs.
- S2s have only the 50mm frame, but otherwise its very bright and easy to focus, with the 1:1 view. Add a Voigtlander mini finder for a 28/35/50 set. Ditto for the M3 to get 28/35/50/90/135. Going this route gives you the best of both worlds: a great little wide angle finder, very bright, with bright framelines, plus a high mag for the 50/90/135 focal lengths for telephoto focus accuracy; this is arguably more useful than an M2 because you'll get 28mm too, and you'll have the 0.91 magnification for the longer focal lengths instead of the M2 which has 0.72.
This is essentially how an SP works; there is one (reduced mag) finder for the 28/35, and another 1:1 viewfinder for focusing and for the 50 thru 135 framelines.
Lastly, if you buy right, you can always get your money back out and get something else, whether Nikon or Leica.
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