That Leica CLA culture

sig said:
Yes I did. Still the fact is that nobody will send their camera in for cla unless they think it is needed. So the repair people destroys the cameras?
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In some cases apparently the repair does more harm that good. Again, did you read the article?
 
Hmm ... the only cameras I've had to get CLA'd were ones bought from ebay described as perfect ... and one here from the classifieds!
 
dfoo said:
In some cases apparently the repair does more harm that good. Again, did you read the article?
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Yes but feel free to ask me once more, maybe next time you ask I will answer no.

Let me think a bit more.... Yes answer is still yes.

But again I can not see the problem. Happy camera owners and repairmen who make a living of it. And if you are afraid of the future of repairmen and women, telling leica owners to stop doing CLA will certainly not help.
 
Ok, perhaps you've read it, but then again reading is not the same as comprehension. The article makes some very good points as to why this obsessive CLA culture is a bad thing; points which you seem to have ignored or missed. Other than repeat what Dante has written what else is there to say?
 
Thanks, at least you believe I have read it, I guess that is an improvement.

CLA culture lowers the prices of leicas - it will more likely make the prices higher
Real repairs takes longer time - fair enough, but CLAs probably pays a lot of wages
Butchers - can not blame that on the leica owners
Repeated repairs is bad for tolerances - could be, but in the next sentence that seems to be ok....

Then it changes. The good repairmen will retire soon, Leica will do the repairs (slowly and expensive). I have no idea what this have to do with the CLA culture unless the lubrication has an aging effect of the repairman. Rightly or wrongly I believe one of the key stones for the repairmen out there is customers (this is where i do not understand why it is important to stop using the repairmen for cla).
 
dfoo said:
Ok, perhaps you've read it, but then again reading is not the same as comprehension. The article makes some very good points as to why this obsessive CLA culture is a bad thing; points which you seem to have ignored or missed. Other than repeat what Dante has written what else is there to say?
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Personally, I think the article is an example of the busybody mentality too many Americans have adopted. Its none of his business what people do with their gear. My experience is that most old Leicas just don't work right. When I was looking to buy a Leica I literally bought and returned 12 cameras in order to get the two M4 bodies I eventually got that WORKED. All the others had serious dealbreaker issues like inaccurate rangefinders, gummed up shutters, hazy viewfinders, dim rangefinders (EVERY M2 I have ever seen, 10 of them, had unusably dim RFs!), gummed up shutters. When I decided to sell my M4 bodies in favor of M6's I had the same problem finding a pair of WORKING M6 bodies. Found two with hazy finders, one with oily shutter curtains, two with misaligned rangefinders.

Only one of the bad cameras I saw was probably messed up by an incompetant CLA, that being the M6 with oil on the shutter curtains. The rest were simply broken and needed repair. If I have gear that doesn't work flawlessly, 100%, every time, no exceptions, ever...I GET IT FIXED. I photograph every day, its my profession, and there is nothing more frustrating than gear that fails and ruins a shot. All you guys worrying and crying because someone has cameras serviced need to grow up and get a life. Its none of your business.
 
I worry about this "believe everything you read on the web" culture. Especially articles expanding one event (or a version of it) into a worldwide happening. And there's this "ask a question as though quoting a fact and people will believe it" culture.

F'instance; is it true that all bridges in the USA go nowhere?

Just my 2d worth.

Regards, David
 
I always found it funny that internet discussions about leica gear are full of praise for the superior mechanical quality, longevity etc. but at the same time there are no other places where there is so much talk about servicing, repairing and CLAing stuff... :). In fact, the concept of a CLA only came to my attention after I started reading the rangefinder subforums on photo.net and here. I never had any of my cameras CLA'd... maybe the "leica community" has insane standards of what a "working camera" is compared to everyone else.
 
Many folks just enjoy "working" on their camera just like car guys might enjoy washing their car. It can make people feel better about their camera knowing it is 100% perfect from a known professional. Not a thing in the world wrong with a CLA if you want one.

The idea that we should not get leicas and send them in unless they are broken and inop is just plain stupid. I wonder if Sherry or Don (who has my M4-P right now) would agree? Seems like a good amount of money would vanish in their business.

There is no greater good being served by not sending in your camera. I am sure this is a "bread and butter" repair most of the time and it helps pay the bills for them.

My M4-P is broken; fully inop so I sent it in. My M6ttl is old, well used but still almost is 100%. I plan to send it to Don for a full CLA with mods so I will know it is 100% and as I want to be.

Wow...I hope I do not destroy the Leica aftermarket repair market in sending the M6 in!
 
japro said:
I always found it funny that internet discussions about leica gear are full of praise for the superior mechanical quality, longevity etc. but at the same time there are no other places where there is so much talk about servicing, repairing and CLAing stuff... :). In fact, the concept of a CLA only came to my attention after I started reading the rangefinder subforums on photo.net and here. I never had any of my cameras CLA'd... maybe the "leica community" has insane standards of what a "working camera" is compared to everyone else.
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Rangefinder cameras are delicate in some ways compared to SLRs. The RF mechanism can be knocked out of alignment fairly easily, causing focus to be off. Leica's cloth shutter curtains tend to wear out over time, which I don't understand because cheap japanese SLRs like old Pentax Spotmatics and Minolta SRT-101 never seem to need new curtains. The shutter mechanism in Leicas does last a lot longer than on most other brands though.
 
japro said:
I always found it funny that internet discussions about leica gear are full of praise for the superior mechanical quality, longevity etc. but at the same time there are no other places where there is so much talk about servicing, repairing and CLAing stuff... :). In fact, the concept of a CLA only came to my attention after I started reading the rangefinder subforums on photo.net and here. I never had any of my cameras CLA'd... maybe the "leica community" has insane standards of what a "working camera" is compared to everyone else.
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Could it be because not too many other forums feature discussions about 1/2-century old + cameras that are still out in the field being used?
 
Funny that usually the people who are the most opinionated and vociferous on this subject - can't have been using Leicas (or anything else!) for more than ten or fifteen years....if they have they must have started at about ten!. The only thoughts that keep coming to my mind are :- "a certain type of person" (polite alternative!) and his money....are soon parted! :rolleyes:
 
Well, I'd consider my statement to be more about internet discussion and online trading "culture" than about the cameras themselves (or am I too young to make statments about that as well?). The point is, that whole "CLA-talk" scared me away from leicas for quite a while. It just seems paradoxical that when you buy a supposedly high quality product like a leica secondhand, that you have to immediatly send it off to a repair shop. All the "old" cameras I had bought up to that point were perfectly usable. I had to change light seals on some occasions, but that's about it. So reading these forums left me with the impression that buying a leica was very risky compared to other used equipment. Anywhere else selling an item with the description "needs servicing" almost equals selling it as defective. Maybe I am wrong but my limited expirience indicates that most cameras will work without a CLA and that new buyers shouldn't be scared away by said "CLA culture", since it turns out to be mostly a thing of preference than a requirement. Exactly for these people threads like this one are important.
 
I just got my first so my experience is on the light side, but would it be fair to summarize as:

The curtains are the Leica equivalent of light seals on other cameras. Unfortunately fixing the curtains just seems to be harder/more expensive to replace.

Otherwise you'll hit the same issues as other cameras - slower shutters, etc.
 
Come to think of it, it seems to be pretty common that old Zeiss cameras (Contarex, Contax IIa...) are in need of repair after all these years too. Could be the tolerances... but I think it's because they used natural, not synthetic lubricants. why the shutter curtains die faster might be another materials related thing.

... and speaking of cheapo Japanese SLRs, my M2 has a Spotmatic curtain in it. I'm such a cheater. :)

cheers.
 
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