secksthoi
Established
I was about to respond to another member's comment about this but thought this topic might be interesting enough for its own thread. But browsing the forum I notice people are quick to mention that Leica prices are going up because the Chinese are "buying it all up". Where did these facts/rumors pop up from and where is the evidence of this?
Since I could recall, prices of a lot of different things (and sure cameras) flux around in value. A very normal occurrence.. whether it being inflation, film popularity increase, covering loss in sales, and a lot of other things. For example, when The Impossible Project released their new Polaroid film, ebay prices of SX-70s skyrocketed, but now that the whole idea of Polaroid has cooled down a bit, I'm seeing numbers return to normal. And also if I remember correctly, it's actually Japan acknowledged as Leica's biggest buyers.
So what gives?
Since I could recall, prices of a lot of different things (and sure cameras) flux around in value. A very normal occurrence.. whether it being inflation, film popularity increase, covering loss in sales, and a lot of other things. For example, when The Impossible Project released their new Polaroid film, ebay prices of SX-70s skyrocketed, but now that the whole idea of Polaroid has cooled down a bit, I'm seeing numbers return to normal. And also if I remember correctly, it's actually Japan acknowledged as Leica's biggest buyers.
So what gives?
LeicaFan
Well-known
Yes, the Japanese may be Leica's biggest buyers in the grand scheme of things, but the Chinese have more money now than ever and they're spending it on luxury goods, Leica included.
secksthoi
Established
I can imagine newer Leica, such as the M9 and all the modern lenses to go with it. But I highly doubt they go on jumping over to ebay and buy out most of the vintage Leica glass and cameras.
btgc
Mentor
Imagination can be trained
If they are buying up Rollei TLR's which aren't anything current, why they wouldn't buy Leica? Remember, there's user gear and there's gear with collectible value. Sure they don't buy plastic Vivitar SLRs even if they are dirty cheap and well spec'ed. Have heard about major car makers setting up plants in China to cater for growing demand - and one could think Chinese would drive their own makes and protect market from foreign cars.kosta_g
Well-known
when i bought my m3, (about 3 months ago) the seller told me he had 5 separate inquiries from China, unfortunately all very demanding buyers - sounds like they wanted a mint condition item for a showcase etc. I asked a colleague (of Chinese background) and he said that these sorts of items show 'wealth' and therefore are sought after. Especially vintage models which are gaining value.
Just look on ebay and see where the most used leica gear is now selling from!
Just look on ebay and see where the most used leica gear is now selling from!
Pikapig
Loving Analog
instead of saying that the chinese are buying for the value...i think more and more chinese are very interested in vintage cameras....so much so that some are addicted to collecting them...i have seen ppl stocking up the same lens or even the same camera....its just an interest...n if they have spare cash, why not...
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
The most expensive Leica ever was sold just a few days ago at a westlicht auction for a whopping 1.3 millions to a collector from... China.
Have any other questions or doubts?
secksthoi
Established
I'm not exactly doubtful of all this.. having lived in China for a little bit, I can say I have seen Chinese wealth and would agree that it is plausible.. It just seemed strange so many members were quick to mention advice to stray from ebay because of the Mainlanders jacking up prices when that might not even be the case.
Archiver
Mentor
OT, but I just have to say that whenever I see your RFF ID, I hear Tom Jones singing, "Secks-Thoi, Secks-Thoi, aaaahhhm your Secks-Thoi, an' bay-bee you can tu-urn me on!"
I know Hong Kong Chinese people who tell me stories like this: a mainland Chinese person walks into a Louis Vuitton shop in Tsim Sha Tsui, and says, 'what is the most expensive thing you have?' The sales assistant shows them something, and the customer proceeds to buy everything in that collection. Just because they can.
In Australia, particularly in Melbourne and Sydney, the number of Mandarin-speakers who are outbidding locals at expensive house auctions is surprising.
Whether this translates to mainlanders sucking up all the vintage Leicas from eBay, that's another thing.
I know Hong Kong Chinese people who tell me stories like this: a mainland Chinese person walks into a Louis Vuitton shop in Tsim Sha Tsui, and says, 'what is the most expensive thing you have?' The sales assistant shows them something, and the customer proceeds to buy everything in that collection. Just because they can.
In Australia, particularly in Melbourne and Sydney, the number of Mandarin-speakers who are outbidding locals at expensive house auctions is surprising.
Whether this translates to mainlanders sucking up all the vintage Leicas from eBay, that's another thing.
errorlogin
Love vintage Hifi, too!
I recently sold a Leica-Meter MR via the bay offering it with worldwide shipping.
Yes, I had about 10 or 12 inquiries from China concerning the shipping costs. And yes, it was sold to China.
Yes, I had about 10 or 12 inquiries from China concerning the shipping costs. And yes, it was sold to China.
JHenry
Established
Archiver's comment is spot on. I've seen the same behavior in Beijing, Auckland, Europe and the States. In fact, as I mentioned in the other thread, I've known Chinese who will only buy Louis Vuitton or Prada (or similar) outside of China. That way when asked, they can say "Yes it is (insert brand), and I got it in Europe." This automatically indicates to the listener that the good is real, and expensive.
I was in Italy a month ago, and during an afternoon in Milan I sat and people-watched for a few hours. I observed multiple Chinese shoppers carrying arm fulls of nice shopping bags from LV, Prada and other top-end stores. I'm talking about the shopping bags where the purchased good is in it's own felt-lined protective case inside the shopping bag. Remember one guy who was easily carrying USD 12,000 in stuff from Louis Vuitton--four large bags in each hand!
The same applies to Leica. Maybe some of them use it; most probably don't. But, what I've observed in my 10+ years of working on China-related topics, plus living there off and on for the past 10 years, is that nowadays, the super wealthy in China don't just want the brand name. They want the stuff that others don't have. Anybody can go an buy a 1ds or a 3Dx in China, and many do; but, it's the sign of a true connoisseur if s/he buys a special edition Leica, or a high end Hassy system, or something else similar. And, while you can buy Russian knock-offs of Leica, you still can't find a true fake Leica in China. I'm talking about something that looks exactly like a Leica, red dot an all, but was made last week in a factory in some rural Chinese village. Doesn't exist. When you see Leica, you know it is real, and you know it is expensive.
Now, let me also say that this applies to people of any nationality. It just so happens we're talking about the Chinese here because there is a huge market there. But, I'd wager it's the same among the super wealthy in Brazil, Russia (where the president uses Leica), India, and any other developing/developed country. I think that once an individual's wealth gets to a certain point it's less about "obtaining things" and more about "obtaining unique things that not everybody has." At least that's what I've seen with regards to China's wealth.
I was in Italy a month ago, and during an afternoon in Milan I sat and people-watched for a few hours. I observed multiple Chinese shoppers carrying arm fulls of nice shopping bags from LV, Prada and other top-end stores. I'm talking about the shopping bags where the purchased good is in it's own felt-lined protective case inside the shopping bag. Remember one guy who was easily carrying USD 12,000 in stuff from Louis Vuitton--four large bags in each hand!
The same applies to Leica. Maybe some of them use it; most probably don't. But, what I've observed in my 10+ years of working on China-related topics, plus living there off and on for the past 10 years, is that nowadays, the super wealthy in China don't just want the brand name. They want the stuff that others don't have. Anybody can go an buy a 1ds or a 3Dx in China, and many do; but, it's the sign of a true connoisseur if s/he buys a special edition Leica, or a high end Hassy system, or something else similar. And, while you can buy Russian knock-offs of Leica, you still can't find a true fake Leica in China. I'm talking about something that looks exactly like a Leica, red dot an all, but was made last week in a factory in some rural Chinese village. Doesn't exist. When you see Leica, you know it is real, and you know it is expensive.
Now, let me also say that this applies to people of any nationality. It just so happens we're talking about the Chinese here because there is a huge market there. But, I'd wager it's the same among the super wealthy in Brazil, Russia (where the president uses Leica), India, and any other developing/developed country. I think that once an individual's wealth gets to a certain point it's less about "obtaining things" and more about "obtaining unique things that not everybody has." At least that's what I've seen with regards to China's wealth.
secksthoi
Established
OT, but I just have to say that whenever I see your RFF ID, I hear Tom Jones singing, "Secks-Thoi, Secks-Thoi, aaaahhhm your Secks-Thoi, an' bay-bee you can tu-urn me on!"
HAHA I like how you guys are catching onto mahh professional name.. :angel:
And my humor apparently
But this is all rather interesting because yeah it wasn't just all the Chinese people lining up for ipad2s in NYC.. they're also the ones in line for LV and that damn Gucci.. haha Hong Kong.. Chinese people's shopping paradise, myself included. =.=
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
OP, seems to me that there is more than sufficient proof in the assumption that Leicas get sold to China in increasingly large quantities.
You can't argue with statistics. The fact that there are more and more rich Chinese who like to show their wealth buying expensive European-made stuff by nature, combined with the fact that there are over a billion of them, should be proof already. If only 1% of Chinese feel like this, it's still >10 milion new buyers on the market.
I've sold quite some Leica gear of the years and have seen the number of sales to Hong Kong and China rise steadily.
You can't argue with statistics. The fact that there are more and more rich Chinese who like to show their wealth buying expensive European-made stuff by nature, combined with the fact that there are over a billion of them, should be proof already. If only 1% of Chinese feel like this, it's still >10 milion new buyers on the market.
I've sold quite some Leica gear of the years and have seen the number of sales to Hong Kong and China rise steadily.
trph_2000
Established
Until about 2 years ago, you could buy new Leica grey market in the US for about 10-15% cheaper than US prices. This stuff was coming from Hong-Kong etc. Now the trade is the other way. Chinese come here and buy at list price and then sell for a premium at home. A good number of the M9 Titans went to China. The Chinese are very influenced by numerology and cameras with "lucky"serial numbers in a limited edition go for a big premium. Leica specifically said in their ad campaign before the M9 T was released that pre-orders could not specify a serial #.. On e-bay now, a generic M9 T that does not specify it's serial number sells for 32-35 K. Any camera that shows it's " lucky " number is several thousand more. As noted by others, Leica is a major status symbol for the Chinese and there are no fake Leica M9's,unlike other goods. There are no fake Chinon DSLR's either, but the situation is different. When I travel to developing countries, friends ask that I send over laptops etc bought in the US. They can get the same brand in their country and both are produced in China, but they all say that the quality control for China destined goods is much inferior. I don't know if this impression extends to high end DSLR's or not but probably so.
HHPhoto
Well-known
I remeber well a statement by the marketing chief of Franke&Heidecke (Rollei; now the succesor company DHW),
that most of their production of Rolleiflex FX, FW and FT, and most of the production of their multi-format slide projector P 66 dual is sold to China.
New stuff, and he said the Chinese are using it, not a demand coming from collectors but from photographers.
Cheers, Jan
that most of their production of Rolleiflex FX, FW and FT, and most of the production of their multi-format slide projector P 66 dual is sold to China.
New stuff, and he said the Chinese are using it, not a demand coming from collectors but from photographers.
Cheers, Jan
btgc
Mentor
Isn't this stuff made in China anyway, where it could be bought for a fraction of cost?
Yeah, sounds similar. This is known from times when USSR broke into bits. People suddenly got serious money and drove luxury cars, I mean, luxury cars not audi a4 and people from West Europe wondered where from all this cars are, they couldn't see such cars daily in their countries. There were also years when people wanted to be driven in long limos like they have understood luxury life from B-cat Holliwood movies. Time is best healer, though
You have to remember that there was a time when most in China could not aquire these things when they were new... now that things have changed and there is excess cash ... they seem to be buying anything that they used to dream about owning. It's not just Leicas, but older cameras in general...and I would imagine that you could name any product category i.e. watches, pens, cars, or anything desirable and you'd see Chinese buyers these days. I say good for them.
huntjump
Well-known
Kinda my thoughts as well...
I think it is certainly plausible. While i was living there you saw lots of people shopping, dressing and looking very westernized. But there were a lot more "barely struggling to survive" people there than wealthy. But just looking at the population of China, I sure could see 1% of the population affording such items easily. That is a lot. But how many are actually buying Leicas?
I had one inquiry on my last online sale from China, but i'd have a hard time just bluntly stating, "the Chinese are raising the damn prices!", at this point. But certainly might be the case
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Chris101
summicronia
HAHA I like how you guys are catching onto mahh professional name.. :angel:
And my humor apparently
...
Your professional name?!?
I don't want to know.
Well, we are talking about the country's camera buying population, not in general.