JimG
dogzen
Melanie, wow. I've never been to Europe and appreciate the perspective of an American who has lived there. I have lived in several LatinAm. cities and always thought maybe that was somewhat like Europe might be like since they were so unlike the US. Since I was not born here in the US I can't feel or understand your sense of patriotism. But life here can be so easy we can end up taking to much of what we have for granite. I'm glad my family came here, glad I'm not working for next to nothing in the 'old country' Jim
MelanieC
Well-known
Hi Jim,
I spoke imprecisely. I haven't "lived" in Europe (in the sense of moving in, getting an address and staying for months or years) but have spent extended periods of time (weeks) in Paris and a few other cities (Bordeaux, Berlin, Zagreb) as well as in rural France (Dordogne, Charente) while on archaeological digs. So, I could be totally full of it. It would be like someone coming here, hitting New York, Los Angeles, and Montana, and thinking s/he knew everything about America.
But there's just something that rubs me the wrong way about condemning an entire country (the U.S.) for sins that are (a) based on stereotypes of big cities that may not be fair and (b) if true, highlight faults common to big cities no matter where they are in the world. (That, and the fact that there is WAY more nature in the U.S. than there is anywhere in France or pretty much all of the rest of Europe, both in terms of sheer square mileage and degree of "wildness" -- unless maybe if you count "rural" as "nature," which I don't. To me, "rural" is the same as "developed," only it's paved over with crops instead of asphalt. If you value nature and the "frontier" it seems like the Old World is the last place you'd want to go. But I digress.)
The thing about America is that it isn't really just one country. It's more like a whole lot of countries that all fly the same flag and (more or less) live by the same rules while preserving a variety of perspectives and values, for better and for worse.
Like I said, there's a lot wrong with this country (our diversity is both our greatest strength and our biggest weakness, and don't get me started on our current administration) but I really don't think Paris is the antidote to it, especially not if the complaints are as described.
Just another flag-waving yahoo I guess.
-- M
I spoke imprecisely. I haven't "lived" in Europe (in the sense of moving in, getting an address and staying for months or years) but have spent extended periods of time (weeks) in Paris and a few other cities (Bordeaux, Berlin, Zagreb) as well as in rural France (Dordogne, Charente) while on archaeological digs. So, I could be totally full of it. It would be like someone coming here, hitting New York, Los Angeles, and Montana, and thinking s/he knew everything about America.
But there's just something that rubs me the wrong way about condemning an entire country (the U.S.) for sins that are (a) based on stereotypes of big cities that may not be fair and (b) if true, highlight faults common to big cities no matter where they are in the world. (That, and the fact that there is WAY more nature in the U.S. than there is anywhere in France or pretty much all of the rest of Europe, both in terms of sheer square mileage and degree of "wildness" -- unless maybe if you count "rural" as "nature," which I don't. To me, "rural" is the same as "developed," only it's paved over with crops instead of asphalt. If you value nature and the "frontier" it seems like the Old World is the last place you'd want to go. But I digress.)
The thing about America is that it isn't really just one country. It's more like a whole lot of countries that all fly the same flag and (more or less) live by the same rules while preserving a variety of perspectives and values, for better and for worse.
Like I said, there's a lot wrong with this country (our diversity is both our greatest strength and our biggest weakness, and don't get me started on our current administration) but I really don't think Paris is the antidote to it, especially not if the complaints are as described.
Just another flag-waving yahoo I guess.
-- M
bobofish
Two-fisted Atom Smasher
When I lived in Vienna, they had a cool thing going that is now since drastically scaled back: you could buy an annual pass to all the state museums, to which a lot of private museums adhered.
Far from getting tired of it, I spent a lot of free time sitting in front of great paintings. I learned that the tourists only mob the guide-booked works, and I often found myself sitting alone in an out of the way exhibition of DaVinci sketches or Kokoshka paintings.
If I had a half hour free, I'd pop into a museum, or on Thursdays many of the museums have late hours, and it'd make for one hell of a unique date, with a culturally infused dinner afterward.
Far from getting tired of it, I spent a lot of free time sitting in front of great paintings. I learned that the tourists only mob the guide-booked works, and I often found myself sitting alone in an out of the way exhibition of DaVinci sketches or Kokoshka paintings.
If I had a half hour free, I'd pop into a museum, or on Thursdays many of the museums have late hours, and it'd make for one hell of a unique date, with a culturally infused dinner afterward.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Melanie: Your last paragraph clinches it for me ... don't care about the zit cream, but the bread, cheeses, well-dressed people (ok, ok.... WOMEN!), not to mention wine...
BTW, the Notre Dame/Epcot bit still has my head spinning, but I'll forgive you.
BTW, the Notre Dame/Epcot bit still has my head spinning, but I'll forgive you.
Peter Klein
Well-known
Melanie: We have to take what you say about Europe with a grain of salt. After all, the people you got to know most closely have been dead for 50,000 to 150,000 years.
Seriously though, folks, listen to this woman, for she is wise. Remember that the Europe we see as tourists is far more romantic than the one of daily life. There is far more real wilderness in the U.S. than in Europe. European city life is a bit more civilized (at least at the middle class level and above), and there is certainly more art and culture available. Perhaps the percentage of people who appreciate it is a bit higher in Europe. But there are cultured people everywhere, certainly enough to cultivate a circle of like-minded friends if you live in or around many major U.S. cities.
European standard of living is less, and all but the affluent have been priced out of the center of Paris just as they have been priced out of Manhattan. Social and economic mobility is less than in this country.
Take your pick.
My own feelings about Europe are complicated. As a person deeply involved with the arts, I love visiting there. Some of my values and attitudes are more European than American. They probably come from my grandparents, all four of whom came from Europe.
But my grandparents left Europe between about 1905 and 1916, and good thing, too. If they had not, they would have met the same fate in the 1940s as did many of their relatives who stayed. And I would never have been born.
When I stand on European soil, my joy at the art, music and architecture around me is tempered by the knowledge that if I had been there just 65 years ago, I would have been taken away and killed. The mindset and attitudes that made this possible were built over 2,000 years and not limited to any one country.
The United States, on the other hand, gave my grandparents a fair deal. My mother's parents indeed preferred their beloved Paris to the crass, noisy, overly commercial, everything-for-sale atmosphere of New York in the 1920s (sound familar, George?). But they knew that they truly belonged to their adopted country, something they and their forebears had never known in Europe.
--Peter
Seriously though, folks, listen to this woman, for she is wise. Remember that the Europe we see as tourists is far more romantic than the one of daily life. There is far more real wilderness in the U.S. than in Europe. European city life is a bit more civilized (at least at the middle class level and above), and there is certainly more art and culture available. Perhaps the percentage of people who appreciate it is a bit higher in Europe. But there are cultured people everywhere, certainly enough to cultivate a circle of like-minded friends if you live in or around many major U.S. cities.
European standard of living is less, and all but the affluent have been priced out of the center of Paris just as they have been priced out of Manhattan. Social and economic mobility is less than in this country.
Take your pick.
My own feelings about Europe are complicated. As a person deeply involved with the arts, I love visiting there. Some of my values and attitudes are more European than American. They probably come from my grandparents, all four of whom came from Europe.
But my grandparents left Europe between about 1905 and 1916, and good thing, too. If they had not, they would have met the same fate in the 1940s as did many of their relatives who stayed. And I would never have been born.
When I stand on European soil, my joy at the art, music and architecture around me is tempered by the knowledge that if I had been there just 65 years ago, I would have been taken away and killed. The mindset and attitudes that made this possible were built over 2,000 years and not limited to any one country.
The United States, on the other hand, gave my grandparents a fair deal. My mother's parents indeed preferred their beloved Paris to the crass, noisy, overly commercial, everything-for-sale atmosphere of New York in the 1920s (sound familar, George?). But they knew that they truly belonged to their adopted country, something they and their forebears had never known in Europe.
--Peter
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
IMO, Social and economic mobility in this (US) country have declined precipitously in the last several years.
Not having had the privilege of living anywhere in Europe, I'd say Paris would be on the top of my list to try for a city. Elsewhere, in winter it would likely be Provence, summers in the Highlands, but more likely I will end up on the shores of Lake Superior, somewhere between Sault Ste. Marie and Thunder Bay. Spread my ashes on that great lake, it is heaven.
BTW, wilderness is a term many use loosely. Second growth forests, areas that have once been developed but now are not managed/controlled by humans, etc., aren't wilderness. The US has precious few true wilderness areas left, and certain interests want to reduce the count by at least one.
Not having had the privilege of living anywhere in Europe, I'd say Paris would be on the top of my list to try for a city. Elsewhere, in winter it would likely be Provence, summers in the Highlands, but more likely I will end up on the shores of Lake Superior, somewhere between Sault Ste. Marie and Thunder Bay. Spread my ashes on that great lake, it is heaven.
BTW, wilderness is a term many use loosely. Second growth forests, areas that have once been developed but now are not managed/controlled by humans, etc., aren't wilderness. The US has precious few true wilderness areas left, and certain interests want to reduce the count by at least one.
Honus
carpe diem
Tom - Thanks for starting this thread. Also, thanks to all for participating. A RFF Classic.
Robert
Robert
sf
Mentor
MelanieC said:
I guess my main deal is that I live in The Suburbs. A bedroom community where McDonalds, Safeway, Shell, Starbucks, Blockbuster video, etc is the cultural backbone. Paris has those things too - but they are balanced with small business. Perhaps I would find more of this in Seattle. . .
About the rest of your rebuttals. . . sure. Paris has all of the things I dislike about the Suburban lifestyle . . packed in between all its steady beauty (something that the suburbs and most US cities lack). I guess I have itchey feet, and I love being somewhere else. Means, of course, that I am always itching to move on.
I think buying a share in a place somewhere far away would be a great use of money - but it is a gamble that things are going to remain in such a state that you'll be able to use it.
I've lived in a few states and three countries in my life, and have traveled a fair bit. Parisians are the most friendly I have met - anywhere except Hollywood, strangely enough. In hollywood, friendly can mean many things. . .
I spent two weeks walking around Paris in total solitude with my camera. In the dead of winter, all bundled up. I spent most of that time trying to BE there - and that meant getting through the newly fallen layer of globo-culture and SPAM to the real essence of the place. It had essence. Some places don't. You can dig forever and never find the bottom. Or the top. Whatever. You get the point.
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IGMeanwell
Well-known
I would love to travel to Paris and Europe ... photograph in a major romantic setting (or what maybe perceived as romantic)
I have to admit living in the Adirondacks gives me plenty of material for years of photography
and if I need urban... I have Boston, NY 3 1/2 hrs away and Albany 1 hr away
If I need mountains, I have Black, Bear, Prospect mtns within 20 minutes ... Mt Marcy about 1 1/2 hrs north in Lake Placid
I have to admit living in the Adirondacks gives me plenty of material for years of photography
and if I need urban... I have Boston, NY 3 1/2 hrs away and Albany 1 hr away
If I need mountains, I have Black, Bear, Prospect mtns within 20 minutes ... Mt Marcy about 1 1/2 hrs north in Lake Placid
peter_n
Mentor
I had a similar sort of decision to make earlier this year. Not going so far as to buy an apartment but rent one for a week. Renting is economically more in line with buying expensive photo equipment, so my choice was do I buy some nice Leica ASPH lenses or do I go to Paris for a week? Well I stayed at home and my wife and one of the kids stayed in a beautiful apartment in Paris and had a wonderful time. And I am still enjoying the three ASPH lenses I bought...
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Ah; social responsibility, getting your taxes' worth, beautiful buildings, food that tastes like real food, and people that greet you when you come in the door (and the ones that don't is because you did not greet them back when you should have -- simple social dynamics), you have an opinion, argue, and that's all it is, an opinion, not a reason to get censored or black-listed. Why wouldn't you want to move to Paris?
Go for it.
Go for it.