airfrogusmc
Mentor
Hi Randy I wish you could make it. Hopefully a few folks will show up for the opening. I'm in hte process of printing, mounting, over matting and framing
:bang::bang:user237428934
User deletion pending
I also think that the rest of his shots are better than the promotional first photo, enjoyed them all. I don't know what kind of narrow definition some people have in mind when they say it's not street photography.
zauhar
Mentor
Rich, this is one of the more interesting discussions on RFF in a while. I like how you have stood up for and defended your point of view, which I sense has intellectual rigor behind it.
I did look at the prizewinner's gallery, and while there are pictures that are more interesting than the featured image, I think your use of the term "snapshot" is about right. In fact, several of the galleries featured what might pass as really good vacation shots.
I honestly don't see much intellectual baggage in those shots - they are not ironic in the conventional sense of the word. Maybe we've reached the point where the lack of irony is in itself a self-conscious ironic statement.
Randy
P.S. Thanks to those RFFers who recommended the movie 'Pecker' which I finally watched the other night. The young character represents a wonderful vision of what photography should be about.
dabick42
-
@ sevo...
quote: ''every man made work inevitably is a reflection of his social, cultural and historical environment'' ??
This is gibberish.
When you've a moment, perhaps you'll clarify... ?
quote: ''every man made work inevitably is a reflection of his social, cultural and historical environment'' ??
This is gibberish.
When you've a moment, perhaps you'll clarify... ?
RichC
Well-known
I'm sure sevo won't mind me jumping in...
You wrote
to which dabick made the above reply. Unlike my replies, his was short and to the point.
And Dabick is correct - far from gibberish, he's stating a self-evident truth: everything man creates is the product of his environment and culture. It is impossible for us to make something that is not coloured by our past experience - both personal and from the society we are part of. So, a human-made thing (e.g. a photograph) cannot possibly "stand alone on its own merits". It is created by - and can only be judged through - an understanding of the society and its culture that created it. This experience is gained innately - through living - but can be built on through study (as I mentioned, the work of many famous photographers is influenced by time they spent at college).
In short, to understand, say, Gursky's or Cartier-Bresson's photographs well, you need to know about the cultures that created them. In this case, post- and pre-war Europe, respectively. In the same way, Dorothea Lange requires an understanding of American culture and history to fully appreciate - which is why she remains a relative unknown in England except to those studying photography academically.
airfrogusmc
Mentor
I don't know about every manmade work but I think Minor White said it very well as it applies to photography in this quote
"...all photographs are selfportraits." - Minor White
Roy DeCarava said this.
"You should be able to look at me and see my work. You should be able to look at my work and see me." - Roy DeCarava
Adams.
"...A great photograph is one that fully expresses what one feels, in the deepest sense, about what is being photographed, and is, thereby, a true manifestation of what one feels about life in it's entirety."-Ansel Adams
dabick42
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@ Rich C....
quote: ''everything man creates is the product of his environment and culture''.
quote: ''it's impossible for us to make something that is NOT coloured by our past experience - both personal and from the society we are part of''.
Really ?
From merely looking at David Bailey's ground-breaking fashion shots for Vogue, would anyone suspect he was a working-class Cockney lad from East London ?
From merely looking at Patrick Lichfield's shots of scantily-clad beauties adorning Pirelli calendars, would anyone guess he was an earl of the realm and ex-army officer ?
Where's the social, cultural and environmental connectivity there ?
Disregard the mumbo-jumbo, Rich, and consider this :
ANY image must tell its own story and sing its own song to its beholder.
It doesn't need an understanding of history, geography, higher mathematics or bloody brain-surgery to understand what a GOOD image is trying to impart. To anyone equipped with an ounce of art appreciation, the ''goodness'' will be self-evident.
Go back to the drawing board, Rich, and have a re-think about visual art.
It's far simpler than you would like it to be..... (!)
quote: ''everything man creates is the product of his environment and culture''.
quote: ''it's impossible for us to make something that is NOT coloured by our past experience - both personal and from the society we are part of''.
Really ?
From merely looking at David Bailey's ground-breaking fashion shots for Vogue, would anyone suspect he was a working-class Cockney lad from East London ?
From merely looking at Patrick Lichfield's shots of scantily-clad beauties adorning Pirelli calendars, would anyone guess he was an earl of the realm and ex-army officer ?
Where's the social, cultural and environmental connectivity there ?
Disregard the mumbo-jumbo, Rich, and consider this :
ANY image must tell its own story and sing its own song to its beholder.
It doesn't need an understanding of history, geography, higher mathematics or bloody brain-surgery to understand what a GOOD image is trying to impart. To anyone equipped with an ounce of art appreciation, the ''goodness'' will be self-evident.
Go back to the drawing board, Rich, and have a re-think about visual art.
It's far simpler than you would like it to be..... (!)
airfrogusmc
Mentor
I don't think we should confuse photography that is created commercially and I say that in the context of created to make money as art because rarely is anything that is created commercially art. A great quote and I totally agree with part of it though I don't hate what I do commercially as Weston did:
"When money enters in, - then, for a price, I become a liar, - and a good one I can be whether with pencil or subtle lighting or viewpoint. I hate it all, but so do I support not only my family, but my own work." - Edward Weston
The way I look at tit what i do for me is all mine and what i do for clients is a collaboration and rarely mine and mine alone. I work commercially to feed family I do my own personal work to feed my soul.
j j
Well-known
In Bailey and Lichfield you have chosen two photographers whose works scream out loud about their social and cultural background. The viewer just needs the appropriate cultural capital to hear it.
bobbyrab
Well-known
A bit late to respond to this, but just to clear this up for you.
For many years modern cars have had curved glass on the vertical plane in keeping with the curved body shape that both aids the aerodynamics whist maximising internal space.
From the angle the image is made from I would expect to see a reflection as per the photograph.
zauhar
Mentor
Thanks for clearing that up for me ! Up to now all my experience with cars has been limited to my model T!
In fact the abrupt curvature of that image is not consistent with the contour of the car's frame . It is of course possible that that some strange set of circumstances conspired to create both the weird geometry of that reflection, and its unexpected brightness and clarity.
Randy
clayne
shoot film or die
Even then, what's the big deal about a reflection? It's not as if it makes the photograph - and I question anyone's judgement if they believe it does.
2-3 people sitting on the sidewalk, one smoking, girl jumped in or was already in front of the camera while the photograph was being taken. It's a cool photograph, but ultimately nothing compelling to see here other than people hanging out, move along.
2-3 people sitting on the sidewalk, one smoking, girl jumped in or was already in front of the camera while the photograph was being taken. It's a cool photograph, but ultimately nothing compelling to see here other than people hanging out, move along.
airfrogusmc
Mentor
Actually its a very important visual element. See #35
jody36
Well-known
Have to say I feel same way seen lots of photos on this forum that are better by far.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I've only just spotted this thread and I'm not about to read back through the one hundred odd posts that have accumulated so far.
However ... if that represents the pick of street photos from around the world that were submitted for the competition ... then 'street photography' deserves to die!
However ... if that represents the pick of street photos from around the world that were submitted for the competition ... then 'street photography' deserves to die!
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
I'll just say that some of the music that speaks to me most powerfully now is music that it took me years to learn to appreciate. Sometimes this was through repeated careful listenings, other times by obtaining a better understanding of the milieu within which it was written.
The same goes for literature. Not every book or essay that I love was something I loved or understood on first encounter.
It baffles me that people think the visual arts (including photography) should be any different.
clayne
shoot film or die
So go see your post to see why it's so important?
airfrogusmc said:
Big deal. That's just decent photographic composition. No over-analysis of that is going to impart any more meaning to it then what's already there.
Maybe you're not getting that this is just a grab among of a group of individuals he came across in the street or otherwise knew. There's nothing compelling about the actual subjects or what they're doing that's noteworthy of winning 2nd place in the "International Street Photography" competition. There's not even anything said about the subjects or what their purpose is/doing. The only thing it says is "I was here, there were people around me."
I'm not saying it's a piece of crap photograph that should have never been taken by any means. I'm just saying it's not anything to write home about - nor are reflection games uncharted territory. You seem moved by it, I'm not. That's honestly great - because it just goes to show we're not all the same.
airfrogusmc
Mentor
Great post and yes I agree. Most things I get immediate gratification from like simple music, mindless literature, or images that need only a glance to understand I move on and no need to go back and spend time with. Its the work that challenges me that the creator respected me the viewer enough to put some real effort into making a piece that unfolds more and more with each repeat viewing/listening/reading is the one I keep going back to and keep finding more because there is more there. A great quote by Ralph Gibson to this very issue.
"A good photograph, like a good painting, speaks with a loud voice and demands time and attention if it is to be fully perceived. An art lover is perfectly willing to hang a painting on a wall for years on end, but ask him to study a single photograph for ten unbroken minutes and he’ll think it’s a waste of time. Staying power is difficult to build into a photograph. Mostly, it takes content. A good photograph can penetrate the subconscious – but only if it is allowed to speak for however much time it needs to get there." - Ralph Gibson
airfrogusmc
Mentor
Its the ability to see those elements in a fraction of a second and then to be able to capture it and that is a big deal and it separates those that can from those that can't. Don't take my word for it.
"For me, content cannot be separated from form. By form, I mean the rigorous organisation of the interplay of surfaces, lines and values. It is in this organisation alone that our conceptions and emotions become concrete and communicable. In photography, visual organisation can stem only from a developed instinct." - Henri Cartier-Bresson
RichC
Well-known
Re. Clayne's thoughts on the second prize winning photograph by Gomes...
It's a classic decisive moment in the mode of Cartier-Bresson (a bit too classic for my tastes!). Clayne complains that it isn't "compelling" - but why should it be? This photograph is about ordinary people living in an ordinary street; and, contrary to what clayne suggests, the photograph tells us plenty about these people and their lives, as Gomes neatly captures the "story telling" moment (the peripeteia) I mentioned in an earlier post. I personally feel he has stronger images in his portfolio than this photograph.
If you look at Cartier-Bresson's photographs (as well as many other well-known street photographers), you'll find many that show quiet, reflective moments of everyday life. For some reason, street photography has become associated with a dramatic and the sensational moment - which is not the same as a decisive moment (although it can be). I'm sure Cartier-Bresson spins in his grave when many street photographers liken images to his decisive moment that are simply pale pastiches which miss his point!
I've studied and written on the decisive moment (you can read my article here), and, from my article, to add to what Airfrog said:
"How did Cartier-Bresson – the originator of the phrase – articulate the decisive moment? He defined his style of photography very specifically in The Decisive Moment*:
[* Cartier-Bresson's famous book, published in 1952.]
It's a classic decisive moment in the mode of Cartier-Bresson (a bit too classic for my tastes!). Clayne complains that it isn't "compelling" - but why should it be? This photograph is about ordinary people living in an ordinary street; and, contrary to what clayne suggests, the photograph tells us plenty about these people and their lives, as Gomes neatly captures the "story telling" moment (the peripeteia) I mentioned in an earlier post. I personally feel he has stronger images in his portfolio than this photograph.
If you look at Cartier-Bresson's photographs (as well as many other well-known street photographers), you'll find many that show quiet, reflective moments of everyday life. For some reason, street photography has become associated with a dramatic and the sensational moment - which is not the same as a decisive moment (although it can be). I'm sure Cartier-Bresson spins in his grave when many street photographers liken images to his decisive moment that are simply pale pastiches which miss his point!
I've studied and written on the decisive moment (you can read my article here), and, from my article, to add to what Airfrog said:
"How did Cartier-Bresson – the originator of the phrase – articulate the decisive moment? He defined his style of photography very specifically in The Decisive Moment*:
the simultaneous recognition, in a fraction of a second, of the significance of an event as well as of a precise organization of forms which give that event its proper expression
"So, the decisive moment according to Cartier-Bresson is a confluence of both space (form resulting in a picture) and time (an event creating a narrative). This is clear from his definition above, and his specific use of the term ‘picture-story’ in The Decisive Moment for an image that foregrounds both composition (space) and content (time):Sometimes there is one unique picture whose composition possesses such vigor and richness, and whose content so radiates outward from it, that this single picture is a whole story in itself."
The street photographer's decisive moment is far more than the "eye candy" - typically meaningless but dramatic frozen movement or clever juxtaposition - that much so-called street photography seems to be. Most so-called street photographers - and this includes RFF members - get Cartier-Bresson's "precise organization of forms" but fail to capture the far more challenging "significance of an event" part: without the latter, your photograph is a failure as a decisive moment - it's nothing more than a pretty picture.[* Cartier-Bresson's famous book, published in 1952.]