williams473
Well-known
Like photojournalism, cinema shares the struggle between the artistic element and the producing side of the process that is more interested in mass appeal and clarity of message than in creativity. I am particularly reminded of an artist like Alfred Hitchcock, who so detested "studio guys" trying to recut his films, that he would shoot exactly the footage he needed to accomplish his vision, and no more. Beyond that, he was known to personally sweep the cutting room floor to make sure no extra footage fell into the hands of folks seeking to add or otherwise change anything about his creations. Of course this isn't a viable solution for most of us - despite this I must say that there are some very creative spreads being done at the highest levels of photojournalism - like photographers, there are slews of editors who aren't particualrly gifted, and the ones that really recognize creativity and have the clout/vision to both take and sell chances are few and far between. A good editor is actually a huge asset, as he/she is able to help distill, encourage, direct and clarify. Course Hitch didn't think so...
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Marty: Amen brother! I find it a real challenge to detach ones self and evaluate a photo only based on what is conveyed by the image itself. Ignoring all the time and work invested and setting aside emotional factors accompanying an image is difficult for many of us.
I recently hired an excellent photographer and ex-major newspaper photo editor to review my edit of a personal photo project. I chose her because she is brutally honest (primary reason she is "ex-" at the newspaper). It was very worthwhile but not something I would suggest for anyone with a fragile ego.
dave lackey
Mentor
Then, maybe you should either do your own editing or continue to work for that chemistry you are comfortable with....? Not everyone can really edit what they should, I am sure of that. However, I am convinced that what the photographer is trying to express through images can somewhat be stifled by the loss of an image(s). But that is just me.:angel:
I suppose it gets back to why does someone use someone else as an editor anyway.
Damaso
Photojournalist
Oh I do. The vast majority of what I shoot is unpublished, primarily because I'm working on a long term project that isn't completed yet. I have also been exhibiting my work a lot more over the past few years so I don't have the same constraints as I do in the newspaper or magazine world.
It will be interesting to see what photos editors choose when I get around to submitting this Pentecostal church project I've been working on (the photo in the first post is from that project). I'm very tempted to hand them an edit exclusively made up of photos that I feel strongly about and see if they demand something more bland (I've also noticed most editors are happy to deal with what they get handed and rarely ask to see more).
It might be an interesting experiment. One nice thing about being expected to do an edit rather than just handing over your film is that you do have more control over what the editor sees. I think I have to start being a bit more aggressive about exercising that control...
dave lackey
Mentor
Hey, there you go!
One thing that you should always do (and believe it or not, this is what a lot of salespeople found out years ago), and that is to stack the odds that the customer (editor) will pick what you want to sell. You mentioned having more control by editing first, and that is true. You can also add in the ones you really do NOT like so they will be cut and not some you really do like. If the really bad ones make the cut, then protest!:angel:
Old magic trick!
Thanks for this thread, it is very interesting, Damaso.
One thing that you should always do (and believe it or not, this is what a lot of salespeople found out years ago), and that is to stack the odds that the customer (editor) will pick what you want to sell. You mentioned having more control by editing first, and that is true. You can also add in the ones you really do NOT like so they will be cut and not some you really do like. If the really bad ones make the cut, then protest!:angel:
Old magic trick!
Thanks for this thread, it is very interesting, Damaso.
dave lackey
Mentor
On my blog today I talk about my approach to editing and give an example form a recent shoot. I think that far too many photographers out there underestimate the importance of being a good editor of your own work.
"Next to actually being able to take a photograph editing is perhaps the most important skill a photographer can have. As a young freelancer you will be expected to edit your own material before submitting it and being able to see the strengths and weaknesses of your own work cannot be underestimated."
Got a question, where are these Pentecostal photos from? I didn't know they existed anywhere but in the southern US! But, then, I don't get out much anymore.
Damaso
Photojournalist
Got a question, where are these Pentecostal photos from? I didn't know they existed anywhere but in the southern US! But, then, I don't get out much anymore.
They are from Barcelona, Spain. Over the past few decades Pentecostalism has spread widely, especially here in Europe. What's interesting is that much of that spread is coming from Africa and Latin America and the United States (the pastor of this church is actually from Illinois). An interesting story!
This image is from Tarragona, a bit to the south...
Bob Michaels
nobody special
I found Pentecostals in Cuba, a country considered to be atheist, Santeria and some Catholic. And not just in Habana but out in the remote provinces. People there watch pirated DVDs of televised church services in the US.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Damaso,
Thanks for sharing this.
I of course agree with the point and the lesson.
I just want to mention that I actually like the second picture *much* better than the one that you end up choosing.
To me, the second picture conveys what happened there with simplicity and I might add: style. The semi-out of focus hand on the left bottom and the half-cropped mouth of the man behind the lady work together to emphasize her expression.
The one that you end up choosing may be layered and complex, but to my eyes, it is just a typical shot that I'd expect given the background story and moment. It is not a bad or weak photo, it is predictable.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I realize that you didn't ask for any opinions on the photos.
Thanks for sharing this.
I of course agree with the point and the lesson.
I just want to mention that I actually like the second picture *much* better than the one that you end up choosing.
To me, the second picture conveys what happened there with simplicity and I might add: style. The semi-out of focus hand on the left bottom and the half-cropped mouth of the man behind the lady work together to emphasize her expression.
The one that you end up choosing may be layered and complex, but to my eyes, it is just a typical shot that I'd expect given the background story and moment. It is not a bad or weak photo, it is predictable.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I realize that you didn't ask for any opinions on the photos.
I truly believe you chose the right one... but a few others work as well. It's nice when you have a few to choose from.
Damaso
Photojournalist
Thanks for your comments, I appreciate the way your framed your thoughts. I like the second photo quite a bit as well.
Once you reach a certain technical level as a photographer editing becomes very much about personality and context. Depending on how I put together this photo essay photo two or photo five might work. As a stand alone image I like the last the best but I do have a more offbeat visual style that not everyone enjoys. Perhaps that's why editors tend to select the images of mine I consider more conventional or boring.
It's also one of the reasons I started my blog: to show the work that often never sees the light of day...
A most interesting thread...
How do you suggest going about growing one's editing skills?
How do you suggest going about growing one's editing skills?
Damaso
Photojournalist
I think the first step is to actually spend a lot of time looking at great photography. Find a photographer who's work inspires you and see how they construct their images and narratives. This is not about copying; it is about understanding the art form.
Next I would say take a long, hard look at 25 of what you feel are your best images. Look at every image critically. Are there things you would change? What are the strengths and weaknesses of each image? Are there problems that reoccur? Are these images interesting to someone who wasn't there or didn't share in the moment.
Finally ask someone whose opinion you value to look at those images and tell you what they think (they don't have to be a photographer). Does this person see what you see when they look at your work? Do you images communicate what you saw and were trying to express?
And then keep doing it and doing it and doing it some more!
dave lackey
Mentor
Editing, IMO, is similar to most things. Either you have the natural ability to do it or you have to work hard at it. I suspect that those with the natural ability are actually better at editing than someone who really has to work hard at it. However, Damaso is right, you can get better at it.
I think that is very important because why would an artist trust his work with someone else's opinion? It is all subjective anyway.
It's like HCB once said about making his images. Charlie Rose asked if he could teach what Bresson does, and the answer was, "No", with a shake of his head.
I think that is very important because why would an artist trust his work with someone else's opinion? It is all subjective anyway.
It's like HCB once said about making his images. Charlie Rose asked if he could teach what Bresson does, and the answer was, "No", with a shake of his head.
Damaso
Photojournalist
Editing, IMO, is similar to most things. Either you have the natural ability to do it or you have to work hard at it. I suspect that those with the natural ability are actually better at editing than someone who really has to work hard at it. However, Damaso is right, you can get better at it.
I think that is very important because why would an artist trust his work with someone else's opinion? It is all subjective anyway.
It's like HCB once said about making his images. Charlie Rose asked if he could teach what Bresson does, and the answer was, "No", with a shake of his head.
I think very, very few people are born with natural talent and even they have to work hard at developing it. The rest of us have to work even harder. I've always said that you can teach anyone to be a good photographer. You can't ever teach greatness I really do think that comes from within at a certain point. But when it comes to photography I think the vast majority of people on RFF would be thrilled to take consistently good or very good images...
I think learning how to edit goes hand in hand with that...
Ariefb
Established
Spot on. Most artists develop their arts through observation of history and artworks of artists in the past.
Yokosuka_Mike
Abstract Clarity
Self editing is essential. Look hard and long at what you are going to share with the world.
It may be fun to participate in a thread, but if one isn't bringing their best work to the table, what's the point?
I'm trying to get to the next level. I have never been as critical of my own photography as I am now.
Good enough isn't good enough anymore.
All the best,
Mike
It may be fun to participate in a thread, but if one isn't bringing their best work to the table, what's the point?
I'm trying to get to the next level. I have never been as critical of my own photography as I am now.
Good enough isn't good enough anymore.
All the best,
Mike
Tom R
Established
Clearly, this topic is essential to anyone who wants to create images for some audience or use.
Editing, in my case, is not so different than writing and reading with a purpose. I definitely create and edit images depending upon their (anticipated) use: images that will appear in a sequence, such as a book, etc., are often created in short sequences--some landscape, others portrait, some favoring a particular compositional element in order to complement the previous/next image in the intended sequence, etc.
Of course, it often turns out that images rejected for a particular sequence, exhibit, etc., are sometimes the beginning of the next project.
Editing, in my case, is not so different than writing and reading with a purpose. I definitely create and edit images depending upon their (anticipated) use: images that will appear in a sequence, such as a book, etc., are often created in short sequences--some landscape, others portrait, some favoring a particular compositional element in order to complement the previous/next image in the intended sequence, etc.
Of course, it often turns out that images rejected for a particular sequence, exhibit, etc., are sometimes the beginning of the next project.