raid
Dad Photographer
How are you scanning medium format film with the Epson v700 scanner? Is it necessary to use glass inserts with the Epson film inserts?
The BetterScanning customer service told me that their current glass inserts do not work with the Epson film holders.
I want to scan 120 film, and Ii have read about improved film flatness with a glass insert. Should I set aside the Epson film holder and get the BetterScanning film holdet?
I need to decide what to do next. Thanks.
The BetterScanning customer service told me that their current glass inserts do not work with the Epson film holders.
I want to scan 120 film, and Ii have read about improved film flatness with a glass insert. Should I set aside the Epson film holder and get the BetterScanning film holdet?
I need to decide what to do next. Thanks.
raid
Dad Photographer
Thanks for the encouragement. This sounds good.
z.bruce.li
Established
For V700, I have both factory 120 holder and BetterScanning holder plus ANR glass insert. Call me lazy but I use the factory 120 holder most over the last 5 years. If the film is really curly and you want a scan right now then it is better to use the BetterScanning. Otherwise I will just wait a few days until the film is flattened under a pile of books.
Frontman
Well-known
I think the inserts and third-party holders are a waste of money. Before scanning, I roll the film emulsion-side out somewhat tightly, and let it wait for a couple days. The negatives end up perfectly flat.
But even when using severely arched or curly negatives, the Epson gives excellent results with it's cheapy plastic holders.
But even when using severely arched or curly negatives, the Epson gives excellent results with it's cheapy plastic holders.
said
Established
I bought two pieces of AN-Glass in a Framing Shop. 6€, specially cut for the V700 holder and the negatives are always flat.
[email protected]
Mentor
Sorry, off-topic but I use the 35mm glass anr with great effect.
+ Anti-newton rings
+ Keeps film flat
+ there are 2 sides to the glass, the matte (next to emulsion) and clear (facing up)
- Expensive
- comes with 5 frame (use existing holder) or 6 frame (requires you to chip off the holder bits)
- needs testing to see if emusion up or emusion downwards facing.
raytoei
ps. i wrote small review here
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127164
you really need to use a good image flipping sw to compare the differences
+ Anti-newton rings
+ Keeps film flat
+ there are 2 sides to the glass, the matte (next to emulsion) and clear (facing up)
- Expensive
- comes with 5 frame (use existing holder) or 6 frame (requires you to chip off the holder bits)
- needs testing to see if emusion up or emusion downwards facing.
raytoei
ps. i wrote small review here
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127164
you really need to use a good image flipping sw to compare the differences
Hi Raid,
I've been using the V700 for three years now, and some times I will use anti-reflective glass to improve film flatness. It's true that the Epson film holders are not perfect but I also think they are not as bad as many say. Firstly, I have found that if a sheet of 120 does not want to sit particularly flat in the holder, it can be worth taking it out, turning it over, and trying it the other way. Some times a piece will sit flatter one side than the other.
As long as I do not have to scan a film straight after processing it, I will always lie the processed film inside the pages of a big, heavy book (and I usually stack a couple of other books on top of that). It helps get the film flatter.
There is a depth of field to the scanner lens. If the film is not perfectly flat, that is not to say you will not get usable results. However from my own experience, when the height of the film holders has been optimised (like most owners I have also found the highest setting is best, after doing test scans), you will still get a bit more sharpness and detail, if the film is dead flat in the "sweet zone".
In principle, I don't think it is that much different to normal photography. Generally, all lenses have a depth of field outside the plane of set focus. The Epson is no different, the zone is simply not very big--but it is there. As with general photography, however the absolute sharpest point will still be the set focus point, so it is a case of keeping the film in that zone, which is why we all try so hard to acheive film flatness.
Now, I'm a bit of a DIYer, so, instead of paying quite a bit of money for the Better Scanning anti reflective glass, I simply made my own. It was really easy. I bludged (Aussie-speak for obtained, for free) a small quantity of some aluminium oxide lens grinding powder from my friendly local optical manufacturer in two grades (a coarser, initial cut plus a finer grade grade for finishing off).
Armed with some garden variety window glass, a tape measure, and a cheap glass cutting tool from my nearest hardware store, I measured the inside of the standard Epson 120 holders, cut the glass to size, and, with a little water to lubricate, lapped the pieces together with the powder in a gentle circular motion, until they were evenly opaque. I should add that a sharpening stone came in very handy beforehand, to blunt the sharp edges of the cut glass for safety.
For a total cost of around AUD$15, I had my own set of anti reflective glass, which I put on top of the films in place of the Epson clips which simply pop off out of the holders.
Now the bad news (it's not really that bad). I scanned up a shot I made with a Rolleiflex (2.8C, Schneider Xenotar) on Acros 100 (ID-11 20C 1:3 16 mins) at close focus. It was nice and flat. The subject was the Spirit of Ectasy fitted to a Silver Shadow grill with a lot of beautiful fine detail in Rolls Royce's casting. I ran it through the scanner with and without the anti reflective glass, and found that the scans without the glass were a tiny bit (as in, I had to pixel peep for a couple of minutes) sharper.
My own experience (and this is all I am relaying, others' will vary) therefore suggests that, if you have nice flat film, scanning without the glass may yield (possibly barely perceptible) better results. On the other hand, whenever a film isn't perfectly flat, the anti reflective glass will help a lot.
I should mention this all relates to using Epson Scan software, with the correct settings for scanning film with film holders in "Professional" mode. I haven't even tried scanning films with the anti reflective glass right off the scanner bed (I suppose I should) and that will be a whole new ball game.
If you want any more information about making your own ANR glass, please feel free to let me know.
Best,
Brett
I've been using the V700 for three years now, and some times I will use anti-reflective glass to improve film flatness. It's true that the Epson film holders are not perfect but I also think they are not as bad as many say. Firstly, I have found that if a sheet of 120 does not want to sit particularly flat in the holder, it can be worth taking it out, turning it over, and trying it the other way. Some times a piece will sit flatter one side than the other.
As long as I do not have to scan a film straight after processing it, I will always lie the processed film inside the pages of a big, heavy book (and I usually stack a couple of other books on top of that). It helps get the film flatter.
There is a depth of field to the scanner lens. If the film is not perfectly flat, that is not to say you will not get usable results. However from my own experience, when the height of the film holders has been optimised (like most owners I have also found the highest setting is best, after doing test scans), you will still get a bit more sharpness and detail, if the film is dead flat in the "sweet zone".
In principle, I don't think it is that much different to normal photography. Generally, all lenses have a depth of field outside the plane of set focus. The Epson is no different, the zone is simply not very big--but it is there. As with general photography, however the absolute sharpest point will still be the set focus point, so it is a case of keeping the film in that zone, which is why we all try so hard to acheive film flatness.
Now, I'm a bit of a DIYer, so, instead of paying quite a bit of money for the Better Scanning anti reflective glass, I simply made my own. It was really easy. I bludged (Aussie-speak for obtained, for free) a small quantity of some aluminium oxide lens grinding powder from my friendly local optical manufacturer in two grades (a coarser, initial cut plus a finer grade grade for finishing off).
Armed with some garden variety window glass, a tape measure, and a cheap glass cutting tool from my nearest hardware store, I measured the inside of the standard Epson 120 holders, cut the glass to size, and, with a little water to lubricate, lapped the pieces together with the powder in a gentle circular motion, until they were evenly opaque. I should add that a sharpening stone came in very handy beforehand, to blunt the sharp edges of the cut glass for safety.
For a total cost of around AUD$15, I had my own set of anti reflective glass, which I put on top of the films in place of the Epson clips which simply pop off out of the holders.
Now the bad news (it's not really that bad). I scanned up a shot I made with a Rolleiflex (2.8C, Schneider Xenotar) on Acros 100 (ID-11 20C 1:3 16 mins) at close focus. It was nice and flat. The subject was the Spirit of Ectasy fitted to a Silver Shadow grill with a lot of beautiful fine detail in Rolls Royce's casting. I ran it through the scanner with and without the anti reflective glass, and found that the scans without the glass were a tiny bit (as in, I had to pixel peep for a couple of minutes) sharper.
My own experience (and this is all I am relaying, others' will vary) therefore suggests that, if you have nice flat film, scanning without the glass may yield (possibly barely perceptible) better results. On the other hand, whenever a film isn't perfectly flat, the anti reflective glass will help a lot.
I should mention this all relates to using Epson Scan software, with the correct settings for scanning film with film holders in "Professional" mode. I haven't even tried scanning films with the anti reflective glass right off the scanner bed (I suppose I should) and that will be a whole new ball game.
If you want any more information about making your own ANR glass, please feel free to let me know.
Best,
Brett
twopointeight
Well-known
I use the V700 with the Betterscanning holder for 120. No glass, just the provided plastic pieces in between frames to holder each negative flat. For 35mm, I use the original Epson carrier with ANR glass from Betterscanning.
V-12
Well-known
Some 120 (or 35mm) films just don't want to lay flat, although it is convenient if you use a lab that gives you flat films, or you use a film that does dry flat, or you want to wait a few days with your film under a pile of books (which I never think works anyway) before scanning your film.
Otherwise the betterscanning holder and ANR inserts does a better job than the standard V700 holder for 120. The first thing it does is keep the film flat. The second thing it does is it let's you get on with what you want to do, and not wait for the film do what it wants to do. And the third thing, which is no small thing, and perhaps the most important thing, is that the holder allows you to finely tune the height. So you can be absolutely sure you are getting the most out of the scanner, not the 'close enough' method used with the standard holder. For these advantages I value the Betterscanning holder highly for scanning 120 film.
One other thing, discussed a long time ago on RFF, is the increased contrast offered by using the ANR glass. It would seem the ANR glass cuts down on a small amount of flare or light dispersal that happens either on the emulsion side, or in the film material (can't remember which) so increasing the micro contrast and hence the percieved sharpness. So it is win win all round.
Otherwise the betterscanning holder and ANR inserts does a better job than the standard V700 holder for 120. The first thing it does is keep the film flat. The second thing it does is it let's you get on with what you want to do, and not wait for the film do what it wants to do. And the third thing, which is no small thing, and perhaps the most important thing, is that the holder allows you to finely tune the height. So you can be absolutely sure you are getting the most out of the scanner, not the 'close enough' method used with the standard holder. For these advantages I value the Betterscanning holder highly for scanning 120 film.
One other thing, discussed a long time ago on RFF, is the increased contrast offered by using the ANR glass. It would seem the ANR glass cuts down on a small amount of flare or light dispersal that happens either on the emulsion side, or in the film material (can't remember which) so increasing the micro contrast and hence the percieved sharpness. So it is win win all round.
thegman
Mentor
When I had a V700, I used the BetterScanning holders, with the ANR glass, I found it quite an improvement over the stock holders, not just in the results, but how easy they were to load.
menthel
Not very good...
As I now have your scanner and holders etc I can only agree. The weight of the glass also really keeps the negatives flat. I find they give a small but appreciable increase in the quality of the scans.
lynnb
Mentor
No problem with the Epson plastic holders, provided the film is reasonably flat. I reverse-roll it and/or put it under some heavy books if it's too curly to scan.
raid
Dad Photographer
Thanks for all your input here. Your combined comments have shed a lot of light on how best to use my scanner.
So the summary is that having the film flat and then correctly use the Epson film holder should be OK, and that having AN glass can be helpful sometimes for additional flatness.
BetterScanning requires $135 for the 120 film holder with glass. I will not refer to such a buy unless I get miserable looking scans with out it. Based on several comments above, I should not really need the kit.
Thanks.
So the summary is that having the film flat and then correctly use the Epson film holder should be OK, and that having AN glass can be helpful sometimes for additional flatness.
BetterScanning requires $135 for the 120 film holder with glass. I will not refer to such a buy unless I get miserable looking scans with out it. Based on several comments above, I should not really need the kit.
Thanks.
venchka
Mentor
The first thing that I would do is take a roll of negatives from your Hasselblad and see if the V700 Epson film holders will actually accept 3 frames from the Hasselblad. My older Epson holders will not show all of the edges of 6x6 negatives from either a Mamiya C220 or a Hasselblad A12 back. Consequently, if I want to scan a strip of 3 frames I have to align two to get the edge on one end & then move the film slightly to get the edge on the opposite end. Pain in the Neck!
Murphy's Rule of negative strips: The good frames are always on the end of a strip.
I want one of these to overcome the problem of the short Epson holders. ANR glass is a plus.
Good luck.
Wayne
Murphy's Rule of negative strips: The good frames are always on the end of a strip.
I want one of these to overcome the problem of the short Epson holders. ANR glass is a plus.
Good luck.
Wayne
Most of my own medium format is with my 500C/M or one of the Rolleis, and I can't say I've ever had any problems getting the three frames per strip scanned in one pass with the V700 using the standard holders.The first thing that I would do is take a roll of negatives from your Hasselblad and see if the V700 Epson film holders will actually accept 3 frames from the Hasselblad. My older Epson holders will not show all of the edges of 6x6 negatives from either a Mamiya C220 or a Hasselblad A12 back. Consequently, if I want to scan a strip of 3 frames I have to align two to get the edge on one end & then move the film slightly to get the edge on the opposite end. Pain in the Neck!
Murphy's Rule of negative strips: The good frames are always on the end of a strip.
I want one of these to overcome the problem of the short Epson holders. ANR glass is a plus.
Good luck.
Wayne
Regards,
Brett
V-12
Well-known
The first thing that I would do is take a roll of negatives from your Hasselblad and see if the V700 Epson film holders will actually accept 3 frames from the Hasselblad. My older Epson holders will not show all of the edges of 6x6 negatives from either a Mamiya C220 or a Hasselblad A12 back. Consequently, if I want to scan a strip of 3 frames I have to align two to get the edge on one end & then move the film slightly to get the edge on the opposite end. Pain in the Neck!
Murphy's Rule of negative strips: The good frames are always on the end of a strip.
I want one of these to overcome the problem of the short Epson holders. ANR glass is a plus.
Good luck.
Wayne
If you have the older betterscanning holder the T-locks can be positioned to suit any 120 film, even odd spacings. If you buy a new holder the problem is solved even more easily, they don't make the T-locks anymore, and the film is held in position and flat by the ANR glass which is now a 'must'.
venchka
Mentor
The first thing that I would do is take a roll of negatives from your Hasselblad and see if the V700 Epson film holders will actually accept 3 frames from the Hasselblad. My older Epson holders will not show all of the edges of 6x6 negatives from either a Mamiya C220 or a Hasselblad A12 back. Consequently, if I want to scan a strip of 3 frames I have to align two to get the edge on one end & then move the film slightly to get the edge on the opposite end. Pain in the Neck!
Murphy's Rule of negative strips: The good frames are always on the end of a strip.
I want one of these to overcome the problem of the short Epson holders. ANR glass is a plus.
Good luck.
Wayne
I did say to check the V700 holders first. I don't own a V700. My Epson 1680 holders will NOT show ALL of 3 frames from either my negatives made in 1969 with a Mamiya C220 Pro TLR nor from my last/current Hasselblad A12 back. The frame spacing on the film is too wide to permit 3 frames on my OLDER Epson 1680 holders. If Epson got this right on the newer holders, good for them.
Meanwhile, my Epson 1680 DOES accept 4 4x5 negatives. Something that the V700 will NOT do.
Wayne
raid
Dad Photographer
Thank you for your input, Wayne. Such warnings are very much appreciated.
I will try to locally buy some AN glass for the Epson trays.
I will try to locally buy some AN glass for the Epson trays.
BardParker
Established
Silly question....but I just bought a v700 and want to get this right. When using books to flatten negatives, do you have the negs in a plastic protector (vue-all, or Print-file) or do you put them bare in the pages of the book?
Kent
Kent
raid
Dad Photographer
I would keep the protector sleeves on. I am also not a scanner pro.