peterm1
Mentor
The term "wet on wet" bokeh seems to refer to the idea that some bokeh from certain lenses seem to have a very interesting characteristic - the background bokeh has something of the character of a watercolor paint technique where still damp watercolor paint is over-painted by paint, allowing them to flow together in a unique and interesting kind of way. This "look" is different to the completely smeared out look that other lenses have where nothing much at all is recognizable in the background. In the case of the wet on wet look the background content is recognizable but actually does look quite like a water color painting.
I had never heard of this previously until I listened to the Classic Lens Podcast in which one episode discussed the characteristic that some lenses have to produce this effect. The link to the podcast is here: https://www.classiclensespodcast.com/e/53-wet-on-wet-bokeh/
By the way the entire podcast series is kind of fun, the people involved often dissolve into floods of laughter and mirth and yet they frequently manage to impart some interesting ideas. Well worth listening to and often entertaining too boot.
Because the podcast is all verbal - no images, here is a link to an article on the same idea by a person who I gather, provided some information to them. You will find some pictorial examples in this link: https://tech.swiss-1.ch/wet-on-wet-bokeh/
The lens discussed above was a Raynox 135mm f2.8, one of those cheapish but apparently quite nice lenses dating to the 1970s or 1980s by some Japanese makers. I understand from the article that the discussion of the lens kicks in at around 20 minutes into the podcast.
I am sure there are other lenses with this character too. In fact I have an old auto-Promura which has much the same character. (And which may be the same lens rebadged - it certainly looks quite similar though there is little to be found on such lenses in the internet other than generalities which would allow me to confirm it.) I have a few photos from it which I will post here when I find them......it can be a chore trolling through thousands of images to find one or two specific ones but it will get done.
One thing I can say about such lenses is that in my limited experience while the wet on wet look can be very pleasant my feeling is that it has a kind of flaw - the tendency to introduce large blobs of blown highlights - do not ask me what the technical reasons are but I did notice it in the lens referred to above. (The same has been said of the Nikkor 180mm f2.8 ED).
I posted this because I like the look and thought others might find it interesting too. Also it reinforces an idea I have known of for some time - some of these older and cheap after market lenses from that era are very nice if you are not after technically perfect results and prefer a more artisitic rendering.
Of course I would be interested in your comments and more particularly, examples of other lenses with wet on wet bokeh.
EDIT: I found one image which I think at least has some of the character described though not perhaps being an exemplar. I have never posted this image as I am not particularly happy with it - apart from anything else the dark conditions / shadow in which the subject sat made it very difficult to get a sharp image both due to my eyesight and the low shutter speeds needed. And I don't think I ever managed frame an interesting shot in this situation.
I had never heard of this previously until I listened to the Classic Lens Podcast in which one episode discussed the characteristic that some lenses have to produce this effect. The link to the podcast is here: https://www.classiclensespodcast.com/e/53-wet-on-wet-bokeh/
By the way the entire podcast series is kind of fun, the people involved often dissolve into floods of laughter and mirth and yet they frequently manage to impart some interesting ideas. Well worth listening to and often entertaining too boot.
Because the podcast is all verbal - no images, here is a link to an article on the same idea by a person who I gather, provided some information to them. You will find some pictorial examples in this link: https://tech.swiss-1.ch/wet-on-wet-bokeh/
The lens discussed above was a Raynox 135mm f2.8, one of those cheapish but apparently quite nice lenses dating to the 1970s or 1980s by some Japanese makers. I understand from the article that the discussion of the lens kicks in at around 20 minutes into the podcast.
I am sure there are other lenses with this character too. In fact I have an old auto-Promura which has much the same character. (And which may be the same lens rebadged - it certainly looks quite similar though there is little to be found on such lenses in the internet other than generalities which would allow me to confirm it.) I have a few photos from it which I will post here when I find them......it can be a chore trolling through thousands of images to find one or two specific ones but it will get done.
One thing I can say about such lenses is that in my limited experience while the wet on wet look can be very pleasant my feeling is that it has a kind of flaw - the tendency to introduce large blobs of blown highlights - do not ask me what the technical reasons are but I did notice it in the lens referred to above. (The same has been said of the Nikkor 180mm f2.8 ED).
I posted this because I like the look and thought others might find it interesting too. Also it reinforces an idea I have known of for some time - some of these older and cheap after market lenses from that era are very nice if you are not after technically perfect results and prefer a more artisitic rendering.
Of course I would be interested in your comments and more particularly, examples of other lenses with wet on wet bokeh.
EDIT: I found one image which I think at least has some of the character described though not perhaps being an exemplar. I have never posted this image as I am not particularly happy with it - apart from anything else the dark conditions / shadow in which the subject sat made it very difficult to get a sharp image both due to my eyesight and the low shutter speeds needed. And I don't think I ever managed frame an interesting shot in this situation.
Steve M.
Mentor
I've owned a few lenses that did that (along w/ every Nikon SLR lens I ever owned except the 70-200 2.8 and HC 50 2). They got sold right away because it's a look that I don't care for, but everyone's different. If I wanted a busy bokeh it would have to be from a Helios 44-2 50mm. I love the swirley look of that lens.
peterm1
Mentor
I certainly get it that it is not something that everyone would love. Also the result is highly dependent on the nature of the background as always is the case with bokeh. But I thought some would like it and others would at least be interested to hear about the concept and of the existence of the Classic Lens Podcast (if they did not already know of it).
charjohncarter
Mentor
Right now I'm thinking of my Great Grand Mother from Wonnerup W.A. So I'll have to answer tomorrow.
peterm1
Mentor
A beautiful part of the world it is too. (And with fine wines).
Larry Cloetta
Mentor
Thanks for posting, Peter. I was not familiar with the term, and it’s not a real common look, at least if the image you posted is indicative. I seem to have accumulated a lot of “bokeh lenses”, but none which will do that. I like the look, personally. It does look pretty “painterly”.
peterm1
Mentor
Thanks Larry
Here is a better image - not mine it is from the article linked below. And it gives a fine representation of what the author is talking about. I like the way the objects in the background look "blobby". Though wet on wet sounds better than "blobby".
peterm1
Mentor
A couple of my shots which have a touch of this style of bokeh though I have also worked them over in Nik / Lightroom so it may be a bit less obvious. In a couple of these I have not recorded the lens used, just that it is a classic lens but they were almost certainly 135mm lenses of some description. But I now notice that the others, which were all selected as having the look, were all taken with a Nikon 80-200mm f2.8 ED AF. Which, on reflection, probably does not surprise me - this style of bokeh seems to be a characteristic of this lens and of the Nikkor 180mm f2.8 AF ED as I also mentioned below.
Market Cafe Study 5 by Life in Shadows, on Flickr
Market Cafe Study 4 by Life in Shadows, on Flickr
Street Shots - Cinematic by Life in Shadows, on Flickr
Street Shots - Las Tre Amigas by Life in Shadows, on Flickr
Cafe Study 40 - Talking Heads by Life in Shadows, on Flickr
Market Cafe Study 5 by Life in Shadows, on FlickrMarket Cafe Study 4 by Life in Shadows, on FlickrStreet Shots - Cinematic by Life in Shadows, on FlickrStreet Shots - Las Tre Amigas by Life in Shadows, on FlickrCafe Study 40 - Talking Heads by Life in Shadows, on Flickrkymarto
Member
How about something like this?
Out to Lunch
Menteur
It seems to be a rather subjective interpretation of bokeh characteristics. This said, would, in your opinion, these pictures qualify -Epson R-D1 - CV Nokton 1.1/50?
Out to Lunch
Menteur
I forgot this one. Same camera, same lens...
PS. I will put the CV 1.1/50 on the IBIS Fuji X-H1 and see what happens. Cheers, OtL
PS. I will put the CV 1.1/50 on the IBIS Fuji X-H1 and see what happens. Cheers, OtL
Dogman
Mentor
IMO, any bokeh is bad if it detracts and distracts from the main subject. "Good" bokeh doesn't draw attention to itself.
Other than the swirly and nervous background photos (ugh!), most of these photos just show backgrounds that are simply too busy. I don't think you could "bokeh out" some of them no matter what you use.
Other than the swirly and nervous background photos (ugh!), most of these photos just show backgrounds that are simply too busy. I don't think you could "bokeh out" some of them no matter what you use.
chipgreenberg
Well-known
Yokosuka_Mike
Abstract Clarity
Sony A7II, Voigtlander 40mm f1.2 Nokton VM lens
Motomachi Shopping Street - Yokohama, Japan
All the best,
Mike
peterm1
Mentor
I had quite lost contact with this thread so it is nice to find it once more. There is certainly some very nice wet on wet oooey-gooey bokeh in this thread. It inspires me to post a couple more of mine that I have found.
This one, shot with a Rokinon 85mm f1.4 is fairly low contrast (not sure why as this lens is not inherently low contrast) but the bokeh is pretty much what the Classic Lens Podcast was referring to as wet on wet. Very soft like water colors painted on wet colors while still damp so everything runs together in an impressionistic kind of way.
Reserved for Lunch by Life in Shadows, on Flickr
And I quite like this shot taken recently with an old Soligor 135mm f3.5 "chrome ears" lens. Sonnar optics unless I am mistaken. The deep area on the viewer's left in the far distance displays the characteristic.
Strings in the Street by Life in Shadows, on Flickr
And possibly this one shot with an 85mm f1.4 Nikkor.
City, Evening - Three Amigos by Life in Shadows, on Flickr
This one, shot with a Rokinon 85mm f1.4 is fairly low contrast (not sure why as this lens is not inherently low contrast) but the bokeh is pretty much what the Classic Lens Podcast was referring to as wet on wet. Very soft like water colors painted on wet colors while still damp so everything runs together in an impressionistic kind of way.
Reserved for Lunch by Life in Shadows, on FlickrAnd I quite like this shot taken recently with an old Soligor 135mm f3.5 "chrome ears" lens. Sonnar optics unless I am mistaken. The deep area on the viewer's left in the far distance displays the characteristic.
Strings in the Street by Life in Shadows, on FlickrAnd possibly this one shot with an 85mm f1.4 Nikkor.
City, Evening - Three Amigos by Life in Shadows, on Flickr
Yokosuka_Mike
Abstract Clarity
Sony A7II, Voigtlander 40mm f1.2 Nokton VM lens
Motomachi Shopping Street - Yokohama, Japan
All the best,
Mike
kymarto
Member
Everyone is entitled to their preferences, but I am personally very drawn to bokeh that has strong character. For me the soft, "creamy" bokeh that is considered "good" is simply boring. For me this is good bokeh
^^^ Amazing! ^^^ What lens produced that look?
peterm1
Mentor
I kind of like both. I like the "wet on wet" look but I also like the kind of outrageous "bubble bokeh" shown below.
And I like the "swirly bokeh" that some lenses produce. And while I am about it, I like the ultra smooth totally blurred out to the point where nothing in the background is identifiable bokeh. They can all be good.
The bubble bokeh here is very interesting and enjoyable but there is a the problem I have with it - you only seem to get this sort of image with close up shots where the background is in a sweet spot at a specific distance behind it and where the background itself has a specific character (eg detail, leaves, lots of specular highlights). I am not criticizing it at all - I really do like it. But one should not expect to get it without specific conditions being met. The beauty of the other types of bokeh is that they are more readily available.
And I like the "swirly bokeh" that some lenses produce. And while I am about it, I like the ultra smooth totally blurred out to the point where nothing in the background is identifiable bokeh. They can all be good.
The bubble bokeh here is very interesting and enjoyable but there is a the problem I have with it - you only seem to get this sort of image with close up shots where the background is in a sweet spot at a specific distance behind it and where the background itself has a specific character (eg detail, leaves, lots of specular highlights). I am not criticizing it at all - I really do like it. But one should not expect to get it without specific conditions being met. The beauty of the other types of bokeh is that they are more readily available.
