NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
I was thinking they need a camera of their own to survive.
Selling lenses only is another problem, there are established players like Sigma, Tokina and Tamron, there are also names like Zeiss...
Kiu
Roger Hicks
Mentor
daveleo
what?
Yes, but CV is already an established player in the lens market. So that "market entry" phase is behind them wrt lenses.
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
This collapsing market you all are talking about is not really the whole picture, digital camera market is well and strong, yeah there are shifts in the market but have you all heard of GO-PRO!!?
There are segments of the market that are thriving, lets not forget that this is not 1999, there are imaging chips being produced by the millions nowadays, forget the cameras, just about every phone and tablet are equipped with a 6+ Megapixel chip.
Mr. K obviously has lots of know-how in making cameras, I mean look at the last endeavor he took:
Copyright Cameraquest.com -- used with permission.
What would it take to get one of the 4/3 pack he is member of to make a chip for him? Put the chip in a compact body(remember FM-10 I mentioned?) with screw-mounts, M mounts and may be a Nikon S mount....Heck he is making the lenses for them, he can have his own mount too.
Make it around $750 and I tell you if there is market for such niche cameras, he will probably sell a million of them in no time.
I sure was having a fantasy but without those, what are we left with?
I hope Stephen does have talk with Mr. K
Kiu
Prest_400
Multiformat
A foveon m43 would be an interesting concept and would give spread to the x3 (or quattro) sensor thanks to the pool given by the common mount.
Alas, it is kept for closed system and fixed lens cameras...
Roger Hicks
Mentor
ChrisLivsey
Mentor
Yes I have heard of them as has the "Financial Times" GoPro shares sink as sales plunge 40% NOVEMBER 3, 2016
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Zeiss is manufactured by Cosina. Tokina, I'm not even sure this still exists. Sigma and Tamron aren't significant players on lens market. In DSLR world they are nothing, but cheaper alternatives for prime players, who are Canon and Nikon. Cosina makes lenses for Canonikon mounts in addition to very popular M mount lenses on mirrorless bodies.
I think this used to be the case more so than now... they have some really great / expensive lenses now. At least Sigma does.
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
Yeah, that's true but one part of the story, here is another news clip:
If I am reading this right, they sold 40% less, but still sold 4-5 million cameras.
Thanks all for the reminder about Zeiss.
-------------------------------------------------
Let's not go too far off subject here, I always thought of Mr. K. and Cosina as more of just an after-market lens maker, you know there are so many many of those around. Lensbaby anyone?
I think of Cosina as a major player that took risks and innovated, they also churned out quite a few interesting pieces in the last 15-20 years...
Where is the Bessa D?
And while you are at it...
Bessa Dm (M mount)
Bessa D39 (Screw mount)
Bessa Ds (Nikon S mount)
Bessa Dc (Contax mount)
Bessa D42(Screw mount)
Bessa 4/3
Bessa Dk (K. mount)
Bessa Df (Nikon F mount)
.
.
.
Reality can be dreamy Roger! Unless we dream about it, what are the chances of having it in reality?
Kiu
BlackXList
Well-known
I believe Tamron are doing a lot of Zeiss stuff these days.
Huss
Mentor
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2...s-details-on-lens-partnerships-and-production
"Of the Sony/Zeiss lenses, the blog says: 'ZEISS supports Sony throughout the optical design and development process and then tests and approves the prototypes.' Which noticeably doesn't even say that Zeiss is particularly involved in the design process, just that it gets to approve whether the design is of a high-enough standard to bear its name.
...it works to ensure lenses carrying the Zeiss name are consistently built to a standard
that the company would be happy with.
The different Zeiss lenses are then built by a variety of manufacturers, with Sony making Sony/Zeiss optics in 'factories across Asia.' Zeiss says it supplies testing equipment to these factories, sets the technical and quality standards to which the factory must adhere, examines the production processes, management systems and measuring installations and regularly audits the production process. In other words, it works to ensure lenses carrying the Zeiss name are consistently built to a standard that the company would be happy with. This is a long way from simply letting a manufacturer pay to use the name."
HHPhoto
Well-known
It is the whole picture. From 2010 to 2016 the market decreased by about 80 (!!) %.
Just have a look at the official numbers:
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/dc_e.html
Just today Nikon published a statement that they have cancelled their complete DL line because of too high R&D costs and the strongly shrinking market:
http://nikon.com/news/2017/0213_dl.htm
If the second biggest digital camera manufacturer already has such severe problems and see no chance for a profit in such added lines, you clearly can see that a company like Cosina with not sufficient capabilities/knowledge in digital R&D and production has no chance at all to be successful in that extremely difficult market.
Cheers, Jan
HHPhoto
Well-known
Exactly.
The best Cosina now can do is watching and evaluating the film camera market.
The demand for film is rising again.
The demand for film cameras will follow in the coming years (late economic indicator).
The prices for used film cameras will rise in the next years. The higher the prices for used gear, the more attractive new film cameras will be for potential buyers.
In some categories we already have now quite high prices for used film cameras. In some cases the prices of used film cameras already match their former new prices (example Contax 645).
Cosina has all capabilities to produces excelllent new film cameras (and there is little competition in that market). Besides lens production that can be their future attractive niche market.
Cheers, Jan
Prest_400
Multiformat
Henning, you've beaten all digital gear sites; Checked a few of them and none list the info. Googled, and it's very recent.
Quite surprised... However, the DL line has encountered lots of difficulties. Word was that an earthquake damaged the sensor line, then more tech problems afterwards. Too bad, that 18-50 seemed interesting.
Again, part of the issue is that the market is saturated. People are happy with smatphones (basic cameras) and whoever needs one already has a good one.
This, although probably batch based and in not huge quantities.
I was thinking, for example, Rolleiflex TLR. After seeing a thread about DHW, these cameras were still manufactured until recently and the line was bought out. If these cameras could be produced at 2000€/unit instead of 5000€, I think they may sell properly seeing the case of the classic units going for a high price. The problem is that an artisanal manufacture in germany has lots of overhead to account for.
A note however is that just a few series of cameras went cult and increased prices, Medium Format mostly -- That's where there is an opportunity.
Contax 645, Pentax 6x7 (105mm!), Mamiya 6/7, Rolleiflex. Basically those.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Henning, you've beaten all digital gear sites; Checked a few of them and none list the info. Googled, and it's very recent.
1. My name is not Henning, my name is Jan Hendrik (but all call me Jan).
2. There already have been a thread in the dpreview forum about that topic. They have been faster than me.
3. You cannot make a TLR for only 2,000 bucks. At least not in excellent quality.
But for 3,000 - 3,500, that could be possible. And I think there would be a market for it (there was a market for it until the insolvency of Franke&Heidecke in 2009/2010).
Cheers, Jan
defconfunk
n00b
Okay, I'm dragging this totally off the main topic, but I'm really curious here: How'd you come up with that number?
The way I see it, a TLR is box with film advance mechanism (neither are expensive), a ground glass and mirror (still cheap), focus is by rack (not expensive and simplifies lens manufacture), and then two lenses and a shutter (expensive).
The viewing lens can be fairly inexpensive. You don't have to correct for CA very much, nor is corner sharpness a big deal. So long as distortion is close to the taking lens, you're good. Presuming we are talking about a 50mm - 80mm you could use a tessar style lens which are inexpensive to produce.
The taking lens and leaf shutter get expensive, but I think of the Sigma Art lenses, and understanding that they have a much smaller coverage than a 6x6, I still don't see a high quality $2000 TLR is impossible with a) sufficient quantities and b) modern manufacturing processes.
Perhaps, a «high» quality USD 2000 TLR (made in Mexico?) is possible, but not an «excellent» quality.
HHPhoto
Well-known
That is very simple:
Because that number was the price of a new Rolleiflex 2,8 FX made by Franke&Heidecke in 2009 before their insolvency, about 3,500€ incl. VAT (their insolvency in 2009 /2010 was mainly due to collapsed sales of the Jenoptik digital medium format Hy6 versions; Jenoptik was their main client at that time).
After the insolvency they continued as DHW, but on a much lower production level and higher costs. Therefore they increased prices for the Rolleiflex 2,8 FX above the 4,000€ mark.
Rolleiflex TLRs are of extremely high quality, very sophisticated mechanics, especially the focus mechanism which is moving both lenses. Open a Rolleiflex and you will immediately see how mechanically complex and sophisticated they are.
You cannot produce such a camera in automation. You need hand craft and very skilled workers to make them.
Therefore they are relatively expensive (in the long run they are extremely cheap because you can use them for decades, and even give them to your children after you have passed away).
But that is also the reason why I think there could be again a market for an excellently made TLR in the future:
It is a "once in a lifetime" camera. Something a digital camera never can be.
Same is course valid for other film camera types like SLRs, rangefinders, panoramic cameras etc..
So Cosina has lots of options to fill several market gaps with new film cameras in the future.
Cheers, Jan
Prest_400
Multiformat
Sorry Jan! Clearly confused you for someone else.
We'd have to see the BoM of recent MF cameras. I have beside me a Fuji GW690III which IIRC retailed around ~$1700 in the early 2000's. It's a Spartan camera like the classic TLR's. Made in Japan, like the GF670.
The latest Rolleflexes, on a quick glance have a few more developed features than the classics.
A bit of a precedent could be Lomo, who have brought some stuff into market. Russian lenses for their Belair and other spurious FSU new optics. The outsourcing definitely helps to have lower costs somewhere. Bless globalization! A handmade TLR in Germany has to fund all its efforts put into it, look into FLM tripods as well. Expensive, but tremendously good German manufacture.
Copal closed up shop and I recall there was quite some concern amongst the LF crowd because there wasn't a mechanical-affordable shutter option around.
A good TLR would be 2000 and under, a Rolleiflex wouldn't. That is the question...Perhaps, a «high» quality USD 2000 TLR (made in Mexico?) is possible, but not an «excellent» quality.
On topic: Sorry mods (John). Perhaps yes it would be interesting to talk about the feasibility of a new MF camera on another thread.
Even a motto to go:
Digital dies, film thrives!
EDIT: Lingered quite a bit on writing and Jan posted above. Agree on those points Jan.