With use for M lenses A7s or A7r II

[Harley Thor]

The new A7s II will be using the same basic sensor as A7s. The new A7rII
has a BSI based sensor, supposed to clear up color shift and be good with
RF lenses like M mount, contax G.

Which would be better for me to buy I have Heliar II, VC 21 f1.8, ZM 25mm f2.8, Summicron 25mm f2.0, Hexanon 50mm f2.0, and leica 90mm f2.8.

I also can use My Contax G 28mm 2.8 and 45mm f2.0.

I want the best results can anyone advise me on what the latest feedback on comparing these two FF Sony cameras.

 

[Avotius]

Honestly you probably will have some luck with a few of those lenses and the others will be hit and miss. Even the RII is not perfect but it is a bit better than the older cameras. I find with my Zeiss 21 f2.8 ZM that at anything under F8 its bad, F11 seems to be the sweet spot for coverage, and at that point I would call it just acceptable.

 

[marko.oja]

Well, do you need the camera for low light work or large prints? If the former, I can honestly say that I shot a gig on saturday using an A7s, and with properly exposed shots at iso 25600 I did not even touch noise reduction in Lightroom. The only problem I can see is the smallish file size. If you need resolution, go with the r.

The user interface is quite awful compared to my other cameras (M9, Canon 1ds3) though, there's like a zillion buttons that are too small even for my hands...

 

[sevo]

The 40mm and up lenses will work fine on either camera. It is a matter of definition whether the wides do - the pixel peepers over at dpreview generally consider them not fit for use on any camera in the A7 series (where the verdict for RF wides on the A7RII and A7S both was essentially negative, but not nearly as negative as for the original A7R).

Personally, I don't object to the corner smear the 28mm Biogon displays on the original A7, which is doubtlessly worse than on the A7RII and A7S. The smear mostly gets amplified to obnoxious levels if you post-process them to a zero vignetting flat exposure right to the corner - but RF 28mm and wider lenses used to be fairly dramatically vignetting on film, with IQ falloff to boot. I don't correct the vignetting past the original look, the smear in the dark corners does not matter to me. Arguably the quality of RF wides was zero distortion and sharpness all across the field, and the latter gets lost, but you can't have everything - they still are small zero distortion lenses with good centre sharpness.

But if you are looking for tiny substitutes for flat-field DSLR wides the size and weight of a Superzoom, there is no such thing. And while RF wides have other issues than old film SLR wides, they don't have less...

 

[Harley Thor]

If you know the how the new A7r II with these lenses, is it, better, worse or the same with the wide angle lenses I listed above?

Which camera body is best for what lenses I have?

 

[sevo]

My personal verdict is still out. So far, I've only been able to try the A7RII in a camera store, no third party lenses and adapters permitted...

 

[YYV_146]

If you know the how the new A7r II with these lenses, is it, better, worse or the same with the wide angle lenses I listed above?

Which camera body is best for what lenses I have?

A7rii is better than the A7 and A7S. The best option is the Kolari Vision mod, which can be done to any of the A7 cameras or the A7rii.

Since your use case seems to be predominantly RF lenses, the kolari vision mod makes sense. I have a modified A7 which I use with WA lenses, and and A7rii for 28mm and up.

 

[kxl]

A7rii is better than the A7 and A7S. The best option is the Kolari Vision mod, which can be done to any of the A7 cameras or the A7rii.

Since your use case seems to be predominantly RF lenses, the kolari vision mod makes sense. I have a modified A7 which I use with WA lenses, and and A7rii for 28mm and up.

After months of indecision, I finally sent my A7R for the Kolari mod. It;s due back today, so I'll finally have a chance to test it out.

Wide Angle Lenses (Before mod / what I'm hoping for):

M-Hex 28mm/2.8 - Acceptable / Hopefully will be better
ZM 25/2.8 - Center was good but edges smeared / Hopefully better edges
ZM 35/2.8 - New to me so I've never personally used it with the A7R

Normal to Tele Lenses (Before mod / what I'm hoping for):

ZM Planar, ZM Sonnar, CV 90mm/3.5

All good / Should be even better. Planar should be OFF THE HOOK

 

[YYV_146]

After months of indecision, I finally sent my A7R for the Kolari mod. It;s due back today, so I'll finally have a chance to test it out.

Wide Angle Lenses (Before mod / what I'm hoping for):

M-Hex 28mm/2.8 - Acceptable / Hopefully will be better
ZM 25/2.8 - Center was good but edges smeared / Hopefully better edges
ZM 35/2.8 - New to me so I've never personally used it with the A7R

Normal to Tele Lenses (Before mod / what I'm hoping for):

ZM Planar, ZM Sonnar, CV 90mm/3.5

All good / Should be even better. Planar should be OFF THE HOOK

I can confirm that the 21mm Summilux is as good as the M9 on a modified A7. Prior to the mod/on the A7rii you have a slight resolution dip at the 1/3rd frame mark and some minor smearing at the edges at F1.4 and F2. It's more than usable on the A7rii, though.

The 28mm Summicron is much better and IMO close to performance on the M. The 15mm Distagon is still somewhat problematic - but I've seen tests run to the contrary online. Maybe my lenses has a slight element displacement - a known issue with earlier copies of the ZM Distagon.

 

[Harley Thor]

My list of lenses doesn't include the Leica 28mm, I have the Contax G 28mm, and I use the much cheaper Heliar 15mm ver II.

So even though you have different lenses can you tell us if you have used them on the A7s which is known to be much better for RF lenses than any camera at its price level pre the A7rII release.

I think here on the rangefinder forum this would be of general interest to many many readers.

Thanks for your experiences even though I don't have those fine lenses.

 

[YYV_146]

My list of lenses doesn't include the Leica 28mm, I have the Contax G 28mm, and I use the much cheaper Heliar 15mm ver II.

So even though you have different lenses can you tell us if you have used them on the A7s which is known to be much better for RF lenses than any camera at its price level pre the A7rII release.

I think here on the rangefinder forum this would be of general interest to many many readers.

Thanks for your experiences even though I don't have those fine lenses.

I just sold my A7s since I'm not anticipating low light works for a year or so.

The A7rii is better than the A7s. The A7 is worse from a corner smearing perspective but it's better with corner color cast. I never used the 21mm Summilux much on the A7S because corner resolution is already fine at F2.8, but the corner cyan cast on the A7s remains a problem at all apertures. The 28mm Cron also has cyan cast, although corner performance is notably better. Not that you can't remove it with Adobe Flat Field - but adding another step in the workflow is somewhat annoying.

For your lenses (I had the CV15mm v1 and the 12mm v2) I the Kolari mod would be most desirable. The A7 will work just fine, but on all of the 1st gen FE cameras there will be some color cast.

 

[Harley Thor]

Has anyone had a A7s modded with Kolari Mod? what was the resultant change in images.

Does the Kolari mod have a negative effect on FE native lenses

 

[uhoh7]

Has anyone had a A7s modded with Kolari Mod? what was the resultant change in images.

Does the Kolari mod have a negative effect on FE native lenses

Any lens designed for film will work better. The differences are most apparent at infinity. The Native FE lenses are slightly worse.

Simply put: and A7s with Kolari mod is the best low light M body ever made. A few lenses, like the CV 21/4 are still going to be soso. Looking at your lenset, I don't see any that would not benefit and shoot very well.

The advantage is, obviously, you can shoot a very high ISO and stop down for DOF impossible on a M240 in low light, let alone a M9.

 

[Harley Thor]

Actually I have both CV 21/ f4 and the new f1.8 version.


I have been reading a lot of the tests and owners of the A7r2 reviews and have been impressed that the new 42mp BSI sensor almost clear up

- Vignetting (1)
- Corner color cast (2)

This has made me think on waiting to see how the A7s2 does in comparison.
I never thought a camera with small sensor pixels like the A7r2 could do this. Of course it would be better for landscapes than the A7s.
The reports are that even with all those pixels it keeps very low noise up to
12800 ISO. That is probably as high as I would have to go since it has also the IBIS in camera allowing 1/30 sec. hand held shots.

I like that the camera also has 4K video, but you need to go into a crop mode to use it. We are not so much interested in 35mm video, mostly just still pics.

I understand Kolari can also modify this BSI sensor with thinner lens
this would take care of
- Edge/corner smearing (3)

Looking at the lenses I have these are most likely to get put in the camera bag

cv 21mm f1.8
Canon EF 24-105mm f4
35mm Summicron
45mm Contax G
55mm Sony FE
100 Zeiss Makro Planar

And since you can flip the camera into crop mode for 1.5 x crop this will extend and fill in focal lengths. When you have 42mp even crop mode has lots of resolution.

 

[uhoh7]

A7r2 with Kolari mod would be great. Except ISO which will be only soso. About the same as M240. Without the mod RF glass 35 and wider is still problematic.

If you crop the pixels are an advantage. If you do not crop they are a disadvantage.

At the moment the A7r2 + kolari is very close to the price of M240 and much more than a M9, which will shoot circles around it with RF wides, mod or no mod.

A7s is now selling for around 1700, so a Kolari A7s is the price of a M9. It is inferior is all respects except video and ISO performance.

Stock A7 is only about 700 bucks, and so there is the deal: 1100 for a Sony 240

 

[sevo]

This has made me think on waiting to see how the A7s2 does in comparison.

As far as known the A7SII has the same sensor as the A7S. At the very best it might have a slightly evolved version of the same. It certainly has no backlit sensor - the architecture change which improved the A7RII so significantly over its (disappointing) predecessor. But then, the A7S sensor already was excellent (while the A7R sensor sucked). And as the A7S already had the thin (by Sony standards) cover glass, results with short nodal distance wides will not even improve as much as between A7 and A7II.

In short, if you have a A7S, and bought it for its special properties, there is no real need to "upgrade". Unless you have a desperate need for IBIS for some rare reason (IBIS is verboten in serious motion picture and TV production - which is what the A7S is intended for - as it will f**k with your pans and dolly rides), you'd better stick with the A7S and get the sensor Kolari modded. If you want IBIS, rent out the A7SII and A7RII and compare...

 

[uhoh7]

My bad, I read your post wrong thinking you were considering the R2. A7s2 does have much better RAW files and I believe it can record 4K internally. As Sevo notes, it has IBIS.

Sevo, I do not think the cover glass is any thinner on the A7s, what is your source for this?

My understanding is the only reason it does a bit better with the RF glass is the much larger pixels.

 

[sevo]

Sevo, I do not think the cover glass is any thinner on the A7s, what is your source for this?

There was a widespread assumption that Sony corrected the cover glass strength prior to the release of the A7S and A7R, after the A7 got negative critiques over it. But you might be right.

 

[Harley Thor]

I have listed 4 lenses that could get decent AF results with the A7Rii because of the addition of PDAF and all the time eye detection focus. I think I will wait for someone's feedback with the camera modded with Kolari to see the rf lens results.

Hey the lenses are all sitting in Billingham bags in a climate controlled closet, I don't shoot much film any more. Good that I live in a dry climate, everything stays fresh.

I agree I don't think the A7sII is going to sell that well , they didn't increase pixel count
didn't use BSI, didn't add PDAF.

They increased the price from the A7s substantially. IBIS is great I have it on my 2 year old Olympus Pen Ep-5, but on a camera that can boost ISO so you can use freeze action shutter speeds, I don't see much need for still shots. For movies its good but the Sony OSS lenses did IS fine.

I expect a price drop on the used A7s because if your a real Video nut, having in camera 4k and S-Log may and IBIS may be an upgrade leaving a lot of A7s cameras being sold to help pay for the upgrade since Sony raised the new camera's price so much.

 

[Harley Thor]

Some rumors are that its possible for Sony to have FW to add 14 bit RAW and Olympus like sensor shift high rez doubling.

That would help the A7sII a lot with people who are seeing that new model as a video upgrade. For landscape the sensor shift high rez could give decent landscape photos with 24mp resolution.