Yashica LTM Film Leader length for Zorki 1 ?

Yashica M39 M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
MartinP said:
Thank you for the information Zorkikat :)

A memo-holder was a good idea by Leica (assuming they were first). Now we just have to uncover the secret pencil pocket . . .

So conceivably the "problem" pressure plates are the victims of mangling by the not-so-good loading method. If someone pulled out a jammed card, or film, then the whole plate could maybe be twisted enough to put a corner in the way of the film-leader ?

If I wasn't in the middle of moving house I would rattle through the test film and have a very close look inside my Zorki. I have my doubts about the rangefinder at a couple of meters, but will follow the various useful instructions on Zorkikats site if required.

And not to forget, good luck Arbib.
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Hi Martin

The pressure plate stays where it should be regardless of what gets pulled through it. :) Its back part is shaped to engage with corresponding grooves on the body shell so that it doesn't wander from its designated position. It sits on a couple of tiny leaf springs. It would be these springs which have the risk of getting damaged from improper loading methods.

My site also has pictures of Zorki dissections, some of which show the pressure plate.

Jay
 
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arbib said:
So, your saying this template has the correct slope and allows the first sprocket hole to line up properly with the edge of the pressure plate for proper alignment before closing the base plate?
According to link you shared, this seems to bear that out.
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Arbib

In a word, yes. The template in the site was traced from a real film leader cut with a Leitz Ablon trimming guide.

Leica instructions do not appear to mention this, but the Soviet instructions for FED or Zorki and even the bottom loading Zenit are quite explicit about the slope/shoulder position of the leader during loading. First, a leader which is too long needs to be reeled a bit so that the first perf after the slope slides in a particular position relative to the pressure plate. Then there is mention as well of having just one perf of uncut film outside the film cassette lip before the
film is inserted in the camera.

In the Soviet instructions, there is no mention about using templates. The pictures in these all show film which appear to have been cut free hand with blades or scissors. Exact shape isn't really necessary, but a gentle slope, the width between film cassette lip and take-up spool, and having at least one perf's length sticking out of the lip are.

Jay
 
ZorkiKat said:
Arbib

In a word, yes. The template in the site was traced from a real film leader cut with a Leitz Ablon trimming guide.

Leica instructions do not appear to mention this, but the Soviet instructions for FED or Zorki and even the bottom loading Zenit are quite explicit about the slope/shoulder position of the leader during loading. First, a leader which is too long needs to be reeled a bit so that the first perf after the slope slides in a particular position relative to the pressure plate. Then there is mention as well of having just one perf of uncut film outside the film cassette lip before the
film is inserted in the camera.

In the Soviet instructions, there is no mention about using templates. The pictures in these all show film which appear to have been cut free hand with blades or scissors. Exact shape isn't really necessary, but a gentle slope, the width between film cassette lip and take-up spool, and having at least one perf's length sticking out of the lip are.

Jay
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ZorkiKat,

Well I should be ready when my Zorki 1e arrives (this week I hope), I haven't ordered the template yet. So I will cut a few leaders on my own at First.

And pay attention to the your last paragraph. I do have a PDF of the Zorki 1 instructions in English too, plus that link with the great pictures of to load it the right way.

What a great learning tread this has turned out to be :)

OT: How was film supplied in the 40-50's for these Bottom loaders from the manufacture ?? I can guess....No leader at all....and the owner cut their own leader for each load. ??
 
Haven't seen a roll myself, Arbib, but I understand that until the 1970s film could be bought with long leaders ready-cut. Presumably not all manufacturers catered to this small market, and of course it is not difficult to shape a leader.
 
arbib said:
ZorkiKat,



OT: How was film supplied in the 40-50's for these Bottom loaders from the manufacture ?? I can guess....No leader at all....and the owner cut their own leader for each load. ??
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The factory loads from those times were precut to the necessary Leica long tongue leader. Not because I was around then, but from the 'artifacts' I've seen...:D


The cutting template was meant to be used for people who spooled their film from long rolls or motion picture ends. There is an ad which I've seen in the back pages of a 1940 photo magazine for Gevaert film. They had precut, Leica-style tongues.

In some of these old ads, the film boxes (such those from duPont) would say "for Leica and similar cameras" or else "for Contax". It may be safe to assume that these factory loaded cassettes would have the necessary cut style for Leica, or else the film is not fixed to the spool for the Contax-style casette to casette film threading.

Kodak were still using the long leaders until around the mid-70s. I have an old unexposed TriX which had this, but I don't know exactly what year it was from. I also have the "Kodak Films for the Amateur Color and Black & White" booklet, edition 1975, which shows the long tongue leader for 35mm- and yes, its exactly 20 perforations long! :)

Other film makers were using the long leaders up to the 80s or even the 1990s. The Ilford HP5 I had been buying in 1983 still had the long cut leader. The ORWO NP 22 we got from around 1989 or so had similarly shaped leaders as well.

Jay
 
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There was DIN (Deuch... industry Norm) in '33 or so that standardised the 35mm cassette, which was used in early 35mm cameras starting from Leitz, 'Retina'...
It adopted the Leitz leader but was too small in height of cassettes by about 2mm.
It survived until about '72, until then all the commercial cassettes had the leitz leader but were 2mm too small, I sold my IIf then, so lost interest in leaders...

Noel
I'll find an example and photo copy
 
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woooooooooooooaaaaahhhhhhh
Sources say it was Dr. A Nagel while working for Kodak who devised the cassette, day and dark room loads circa '34...
Sorry.
I'll scan a commercial sample this PM.
Noel
P.S. I only have a sample as the concentric cassettes I buy always seem to come with dark room loads, some of the dark room loads had the film type on the leader as punched holes, I get bad nostalgia...
 
Xmas said:
woooooooooooooaaaaahhhhhhh
Sources say it was Dr. A Nagel while working for Kodak who devised the cassette, day and dark room loads circa '34...
Sorry.
I'll scan a commercial sample this PM.
Noel
P.S. I only have a sample as the concentric cassettes I buy always seem to come with dark room loads, some of the dark room loads had the film type on the leader as punched holes, I get bad nostalgia...
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Noel

The sources do say that Kodak got the Nagel works to make their 35mm cameras. When they had the camera for it, they had to produce film for it- one which would attract more buyers by being more convenient to use. Convenience meant doing away with darkroom loading and getting film out of the box, ready to load into the camera.

The container they came up with is truly wondrous: it would fit not only the Retina but also Contax and Leica, as well as the "others" like the Kine Exakta. Contax and Leica brought out their own cassettes which were compatible only with their respective cameras. Kodak called their film loaded cassettes as "135", following their custom of using the "1" prefix to denote daylight loading films.

The paper leadered and spooled "refills" could also be seen in the old adverts. Sometimes they were called as "235". The protective paper was unsealed, pulled out a bit and then inserted into the emptied cassette. After capping the cassette, the paper was pulled out until the film came out.

There were also film supplied for darkroom loading in both 18/20 or 36 exposure lengths, wrapped in black paper. Another variant was the slightly longer rolls, which were either notched to mark where they should be cut or else had preshaped leaders between the necessary lengths.

Jay
 
Jay

When I said bad nostalgia I ment I could recall all these things, from '61. I was so poor (at school) I had to use the dark room loads as they were cheaper...

Though I never knew about the multiple rolls, they may have gone by '61.

Noel
 
Old ads

Old ads

Old adverts from 1940 for 35mm film which appeared in the American "Minicam Photography" magazine.

One is for Dupont "Superior" film, showing boxes labelled for the cameras which the film fit in. Two of the boxes are marked "for Argus-Leica-Retina" and one is "for Contax". Perhaps it's the way the film leaders are cut or maybe the Contax load allows cassette to casette feeding which does away with rewinding.

The other is a back-page advert for Gevaert "Panchromosa" film which touts
daylight loading convenience. The spool on the left is a daylight spool for refilling cassettes, with a paper leader. On the right is a factory loaded spool
(in a "new bakelite refillable film cartridge") whose leader is already cut.

Jay
 

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Noel, Dr. Nagel apparently devised both the cassette and the Retina in Germany, his concern -- or maybe just his designs -- being bought up soon by Kodak.

The illustration in my IIIc's instruction booklet shows the cut after the 23rd perforation, while that in the Leica Guide (Focal Press) shows it after the 20th. If there are 8 perforations to a frame (3.6 cm), then there should be 22.222 in 10 cm. My guess is that people did not get so worked up about this 70 years ago. To my certain knowledge, it was no great issue in the early 1960s.
 
pay
He sold the factory and worked as technical director, the origional cameras and the early Retinas were gems, later ones were less so but still really nice.
He patented the cassette.
Noel
 
Well, I have now tried loading with 23-holes and 21-holes length on the long leader. Happily both are fine.

I did fiddle to get a couple of holes worth of full-width film out of the cassette before putting it in the camera, but (based on my statistically useless sample of two cameras) it looks like a lot of the nightmare stories could be to do with individual cameras, or individual users somehow.

Hopefully, I will have finished moving house by next weekend and can then catch up with actually developing a few rolls - to see if it was worth putting any film in the Zorki in the first place....
 
MartinP said:
Well, I have now tried loading with 23-holes and 21-holes length on the long leader. Happily both are fine.

I did fiddle to get a couple of holes worth of full-width film out of the cassette before putting it in the camera, but (based on my statistically useless sample of two cameras) it looks like a lot of the nightmare stories could be to do with individual cameras, or individual users somehow.

Hopefully, I will have finished moving house by next weekend and can then catch up with actually developing a few rolls - to see if it was worth putting any film in the Zorki in the first place....
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Well I too have loaded my second roll (22 holes). What I did is take a white paper and stretch out the leader. Then I used a red marker to make a dot under each hole counted. (helps NOT lose count). I can use this paper as a guide for furure leaders.
I then drew a red line on the Emulsion side of the film at the 22nd hole. I then trim the leader with a slight slope to the edge.

I turn my Zorki over with the lens facing ME, (Take up spool is on the right).
I place the film cassette in the left side (using the Red line I drew as a guide for the sprockets) and wind up on the take up spool any spare I may have. I drop the take up spool in, making sure the film winds around from the inside (left).

I then look at a sprocket and hole Close to the Take up spool, under a lamp, and wind the film knob a little to make sure it is pulling film from the film cassette. I close the base and lock it, then tighten the rewind a little. And finish the winding cycle.

Setting the Counter: I move the R lever to R, and adj the counter to 1 less than Zero. Place R lever back in Advance position. And wind off 2 frames as I watch the rewind knob turn for each advance. Done....less than 1 minute.

With practice, I can get it down to 45s....I hope.

There is my blow by blow loading rutine. :D
 
My only problem is I have to sit down, I open the commercial card board box, put my thumb on the 23nd hole and swiss army knife (scissors), the film to the 22nd, and I know the 21st is the formal rule, the 22nd allows a margin with the Ru take up spools, some are well difficult to trap film into.

If you fly and forget to put the knife into the hold luggage they confiscate the knife.

This works every time with my Zorki 1s (or Fed1s), I pre cut the leaders when I bulk load for the other bottom loaders, that will accept concentric cassettes.

The only real problem is getting the commercial cassettes back out of the Zorkis or Feds, lots are really tight, hanky and swiss army knife, the hanky to protect the camera, a rag will do instead... useful if you cut yourself as well, as mop.

Noel
 
The "not more than two holes showing" business can be fiddly, Martin, if the leader abruptly becomes full width, as it does with a right angled cut. A slope (or should I say a taper?) eases things a great deal.

With my Zorki 1C, Noel, I find that the little pliers in my Swiss army knife are a lot better than fingers.
 
Xmas said:
My only problem is I have to sit down, I open the commercial card board box, put my thumb on the 23nd hole and swiss army knife (scissors), the film to the 22nd, and I know the 21st is the formal rule, the 22nd allows a margin with the Ru take up spools, some are well difficult to trap film into.

If you fly and forget to put the knife into the hold luggage they confiscate the knife.

This works every time with my Zorki 1s (or Fed1s), I pre cut the leaders when I bulk load for the other bottom loaders, that will accept concentric cassettes.

The only real problem is getting the commercial cassettes back out of the Zorkis or Feds, lots are really tight, hanky and swiss army knife, the hanky to protect the camera, a rag will do instead... useful if you cut yourself as well, as mop.

Noel
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Yes, I have to sit too, But, I am typically in no hurry, so, I can find a place if needed. Still, though, If I'm going take a slew of photo's, I'll take my DSLR Or SLR instead. I normally don't take more than a 24x on one outing with the RF. I have a topic in mind, and shoot 5-10 frames.

But, I too pre-trim a couple of rolls, just in case..

I had a keychain folder That I forgot about before boarding a plane...I just unclipped it and said "Enjoy, sorry about that"..

I think a slope towards the 21-23 hole is more nessery than the exact hole useage. I make sure the cut to the edge goes between two holes, to avoid a "Hanging Chad"...(A little USA humer from the 2000 Natiional elections)
 
In an earlier post, Jocko (Ian) pointed to an eBay seller named LAKESUWA who has ABLON copies. I checked, and it was true. $15 apiece.
 
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