Canon LTM Canon P vs 7s

Canon M39 M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
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Mono-P

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Hi, I'm thinking about buying one of these rangefinders and would like to hear from people who have used both and how they compare? Sorry of this has been asked beofre, I did a quick search but couldn't find any previous discussion.
 
In my opinion, the 7s is a technically more advanced camera than the P. The selectable frames in the combination viewfinder/rangefinder are superior to the all-frames-in-one-image approach of the P.

That said, I have never found the brick format of the 7 series cameras to be comfortable in my hands. The ergonomics don't suit me personally, so while an outing with the P is an overall enjoyable experience, an outing with a 7 isn't.

Note that this is simply a personal preference issue. Try getting hands-on experience with both cameras and decide for yourself.
 
Yes I thought the P looked more stream-lined but the selectable frames in the 7s sound better plus the light meter may swing it for me.
 
I haven't used a P, but I will say I'm not a fan of the 7. It's big in the hand and the strap lugs are in the wrong place - the camera doesn't balance very well with most of the LTM lenses I own so it ends up tipping backwards and jabbing you in the ribs or chest. The only work-around I could see (short of using a longer and heavier lens) was to mount a tripod mount strap lug and hang it vertically like a Leica M5 instead.

The 7 also doesn't have an accessory shoe, so you have to track down the silly adaptor to use any lenses that aren't supported by the viewfinder (a problem solved by the 7S, admittedly), and I'm actually not a fan of the viewfinder overall; this might just be down to the condition of the one I own, but I can see "patches" around the position of each rangefinder frameline in the right light - even the ones that aren't in use - which is really bloody annoying.

Based on all of this, I kinda wish I'd ended up with a P instead. But as someone gave me the 7, I can't complain too much. It's still a competent shooter... it just doesn't suit me at all.
 
Not to repeat what's already been written, but the viewfinder of the P is busier, with 35/50/100 framelines always in view. Some people find this annoying, some don't. The P also uses reflective framelines, some which have not aged well (washed out and flary). The viewfinder of the 7 is cleaner and it uses projected framelines like a Leica M. These seem to have aged well. The P is a bit smaller than the 7. The exposure meter of the 7 is a plus, if it's working. In reality, either one is a good pick. If you can, try before buying.

Jim B.
 
I have owned a P and a 7. I currently own a L1. I found that the 7 was big and clunky feeling so I sold it and bought the P. The P was more stream lined but i did not like the view finder, Then I read about the L1. It is better built and more elegant than the P and has a much better view finder than the P, It is by far my first choice, The only downside, as far as I am concerned, is that the RF setting on the view finder is closer to 135mm view than the 90mm Voigtlander lens I use. I have been looking for a reasonably priced 90mm view finder unsuccessfully. I may end up buying an 85mm finder.
 
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Thanks for all your replies. Is there a model with the stream-lining design of the P but including a light meter and paralex correction?
 
I was in a similar boat, none of the canons seem to check ALL of the boxes. Another option might be a Voigtlander Bessa?

Pretty sure the P is indeed parallax corrected. I ended up buying a P and I got a doomo light meter for the hotshoe. It’s a pretty dang good set up.
 
7 owner here - the P is sleeker looking and much more trendy (and therefore more expensive). the 7 is clunkier, more capable, and much less expensive but don't expect the inboard selenium meter to still work. The 7s has an accessory shoe and a dependable CDS meter but it's still clunky. It's a heart vs head kinda issue.
 
I have both.
1) Do you wear eye glasses: Yes, Canon 7 is easier to see through the viewfinder as it is 0.8x magnification. The meters on both of mine are accurate. For the meter high/low sensitivity dial, I put a rubber bumper on mine to prevent scratching my glasses.

2) Do you use fast lenses with hoods, or telephoto lenses with hoods? The RF window of the Canon P is close to the lens. A larger diameter lens with a Hood will block the RF window.

I have both, use both. Each is better for certain things.
 
Mono-P said:
Thanks for all your replies. Is there a model with the stream-lining design of the P but including a light meter and paralex correction?
Click to expand...
For this, look to a Voigtlander Bessa-R or R2 (the R2 is M mount, but takes all ltm lenses using the same adapters a Leica M camera uses. It is a better constructed body however) These days I am doing most of my ltm shooting on an R2, with a little on a Leica IIf.
 
I recommend neither a P nor a 7 but a VI-T or VI-L with the clip on selenium meter (many of which work just fine today). The VI is better than the P and Bessas are better than the 7 and 7s. :)
 
As someone who has a lot of Canon rangefinders (7, L1, P and VIL) using them regularly here's some thoughts not just on the P vs the 7 but generally speaking on what I think are Canons most useful (in practical, non collector terms) rangefinder bodies:

Shared between all models mentioned here:
  • All Canon rangefinders have a rotating "goggly eye" which makes telling when you are done rewinding a snap
  • Shutter speeds from 1s up to 1/1000th and metal curtains with the exception of some early to mid life L1 models - some L1's have been retrofitted with metal curtains so it's worth checking
  • All have a flash sync port to the left hand side (when held lens facing out) which also has a bayonet for a flash gun, and all offer X-Sync speed for flash
  • All Canon RFs from the L1 onward up to but not including the Canon 7 take the same leather half case which has straps in a more favorable position and stops the camera from tilting back or forth. I recommend getting one - it adds little weight makes carrying the camera more comfortable and adds a bit of protection against both impacts and light leaks. Also, if you are a maniac like me with several bodies, it means you don't have to move strap lugs between bodies as you use them. Instead you just pop them into the case, which has the straps.

The Canon P
  • Perhaps Canons sleekest design it looks nice and feels great in hand, it has a self timer and is larger than the L1 which is the smallest of them all and identical in size to the VIL (6L) and smaller than the 7, it is a tad lighter than the VIL but not something you would notice in practice
  • The rangefinder/viewfinder is 1:1 this means that the always visible 35mm frame-lines are there but neigh-useless even without glasses, the 100mm frame-lines don't bother me as much - all have parallax correction
  • The frame-lines (35,50,100) are van albada type so whether you can easily see them or not depends on the light and how much your finder has deteriorated (they all have a bit in my experience)
  • The RF patch is the softest and relatively modest in contrast, however here the 1:1 view helps and it is still very easy to attain certain RF focus
  • No parallax linkage for Canon viewfinders, this may seem like a minus but it also makes the focusing action feel a tad lighter vs the VIL or the L1 (all three cameras have been serviced) as you are moving around less mechanical bits
  • It shares the fold-out rewind knob with the L1 and VIL I personally like this design but it does have a habit of sometimes popping up unwantedly especially when carrying the camera around your neck
  • It has a non rotating single shutter speed dial which can be rotated all the way around (are you listening Nikon, Leica?!) so no need to "go backwards"
  • It has a (imo) useless film reminder dial on the back
The Canon VIL
  • Looks the same as the P and has most of its features, including self-timer
  • It adds selectable viewfinders for 35mm and 50mm which includes a 50mm and 100mm frame-line as well as a 1:1 setting for long lenses, the 50mm and 100mm frame-lines are shown together and parallax corrected but still van-albada principle so visibility is so-so
  • The rangefinder patch is similar to the P on 50/100mm and RF, and a lot better (due to the omission of the albada frame-lines and smaller magnification) for 35mm
  • A bit heavier than the P but not by much
  • It has a parallax linkage for external finders which the P lacks making focus a tiny bit stiffer for some lenses
  • Like the P it has a film reminder dial on the back
The Canon 7
  • The largest of the cameras mentioned here, interestingly not the heaviest (the VIL is heavier by a small margin according to my own measurements), due to its size and lower weight it does feel a bit "hollow" the other cameras feel denser. It has a self timer
  • The rangefinder/viewfinder, from a versatility standpoint, is the best of the bunch, a good contrasty RF patch with illuminated frame-lines that are clearly labelled as to their focal length within(!) the viewfinder which basically means you can do some quick check what the composition would be like with another lens and also never have the wrong frame-line up. (35,50,85 and 100, 135)
  • The illuminated (not albada) frame-lines are also parallax corrected meaning the focus distance is taken into consideration which helps a bit with compositional accuracy
  • The stubby wind-lever feels actually nicer to wind for my tastes than the P or L1 and VIL, the rewind lever is of typical construction and ... works nothing to report here
  • Like the above it has a non rotating single shutter speed dial, BUT it no longer goes round and round ... if you are at 1/500 and want 1/30 you now have to go "the long way around" ... sigh you get "T" as a consolation prize which the VIL and P lack
  • The bayonet around the lens mount for the 0.95 lens can interfere with some early Elmars and some early Russian lenses such as the Industar
  • The strap lug position is down from the center of mass, which is actually a trait all Canon RF bodies share due to Canons reluctance to attach the lugs to the top casting itself, however in the 7 this "habit" is clearly at its worst and the camera likes to canter backwards with light lenses
  • A selenium light meter which most likely will be useless, miraculously mine is still perfectly accurate in both low and bright light at ISO 400. However I would not assume that this is the norm. Even so these are clunky due to their wide angle of acceptance (meaning they see a lot of the sky and meter for that)
  • The only camera in this list without a cold-shoe excepting the rare Canon 7Sz (the very last model), which adds it back
  • No more film reminder dial
The Canon L1
  • The smallest camera of the lot, it is also lighter than all of the above, it shares the rewind lever which debuted on this camera with the P and VIL
  • It has a similar three-position (50, 35 and RF) viewfinder to the VIL but no parallax frame-lines. Rangefinder contrast and visibility is excellent, the best of the bunch however the magnification is also the lowest. Due to its (comparatively!) simple nature these usually seem to hold up a bit better than the VIL and P's
  • Earlier models have a gold RF patch, later models have a clear finder with a platinum (white) RF patch, condition being the same it's really a matter of personal perference
  • It has a parallax linkage for external finders so the caveats outlined above apply
  • Depending on the exact model it may (VL1) or may not have (L1) a self-timer, L1 are usually labelled as such on the bottom VL1's aren't
  • The shutter speeds are split between two dials, one of which rotates during exposure. This makes changing shutter speeds slower than the other cameras, but it means that hassle-free double exposures are possible (rotate the dial CCW) without hassle - with the other cameras it involves a lot more guesswork - it has B and T settings
  • It being the oldest camera it uses the least amount of light seals and foam and instead uses light traps and labyrinths, this can potentially mean less maintenance in this regard (realistically I had no big problems with any of the above before service, the P had a very slight light leak from the back which would only show up if the camera was left unmolested for several days)
  • No film reminder dial
  • Only model of the four that can be set to sync with older bulb-style flashes (afaik)

I hope that this is helpful to potential Canon RF buyers. Overall I find these cameras to be very reliable, the RF does not appear to drift easily and the shutter on any of these has yet to cause me any problems even after several hundreds of rolls.
 
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That was a great post, @TenEleven - sums those models up really well. One correction, however:

TenEleven said:
  • All Canon rangefinders have a rotating "goggly eye" which makes diagnosing film feed issues as well as telling when you are done rewinding a snap
Click to expand...

Early Canons don't have that "goggly eye" (took me a second to understand what you meant there!) - and don't even have the dot on the shutter release to indicate shutter or film movement like the later screwmount Leicas do. The indicator only got added on the VT; anything earlier than that (II, III, IV) is lacking that feature.

Also, I'd argue it doesn't really help with film feed issues, as it is linked to the shutter advance, not the film transport. Cocking the shutter with an empty camera still causes the "goggly eye" to move.
 
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