Deardorff38
Mentor
Sorry, Ned I still disagree with you. I bought both black paint & chrome (75th anniversary) M4s in the 70s.....paint ones were shinier than black chrome.
& '30s Leica black paint was shiny, as are the latest generation (MP)...... we'll just have to agree to have different opinions on that one.
Richard G
Mentor
The quality of the black paint on my 1932 Leica II is very impressive. It’s still shiny.
Erik van Straten
Mentor
There are different types of paint used by Leitz for Leicas. The models I, II and III exist in black paint, but the type of paint used for these cameras is different from the black paint used for the early MP's, M3's and M2's. The type of black paint used for M4's is different from the paint used for the early MP's, M3's and M2's. The type of paint used for the recent MP's is also different. This situation leads to many misunderstandings.
An extra problem is that many early black M-cameras are redone by Leitz. So there are quite a lot of black M2's with an early number that are painted with M4 paint. Usually these have the "deep" engraving of the M4. In fact it is no engraving, but the lettering is pressed into the metal; only the serial number is engraved. So it is clear that in those cases the whole top plate is renewed.
An extra problem is that many early black M-cameras are redone by Leitz. So there are quite a lot of black M2's with an early number that are painted with M4 paint. Usually these have the "deep" engraving of the M4. In fact it is no engraving, but the lettering is pressed into the metal; only the serial number is engraved. So it is clear that in those cases the whole top plate is renewed.
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Ororaro
Well-known
I would also like to post pics of my dozen black paint bodies, but alas they are in the Bank Locker, where I keep them.
But here is a funny story that happened less than a month ago;
A friend purchased a brand new Black M4 from an old man, in a bundle, for little money. The kind of deal of a lifetime.
Once home, my friend called me, worried. His Pristine M4 black paint was a black Chrome body, according to him. It took him many days to figure out that it was maybe a black paint, after all, which of course it was.
Out of his deal, I was fortunate enough to get an okay-iiiiiish deal on a brand new, never used, summilux V3 50mm, bnib.
But here is a funny story that happened less than a month ago;
A friend purchased a brand new Black M4 from an old man, in a bundle, for little money. The kind of deal of a lifetime.
Once home, my friend called me, worried. His Pristine M4 black paint was a black Chrome body, according to him. It took him many days to figure out that it was maybe a black paint, after all, which of course it was.
Out of his deal, I was fortunate enough to get an okay-iiiiiish deal on a brand new, never used, summilux V3 50mm, bnib.
Huh?🤔 😅
Deardorff38
Mentor
Erik, I was referring to Ned's comment that BP Ms look like black chrome cameras, when in fact they do not. Side by side when new, the black chrome is matte overall, while the black paint is by comparison shinier....and reflects light especially from angles & corners.
Going with an auction house is one way. I have no experience with that.I'm replying because some of you hurt my feelings lol. I'm new here and I'm here to learn.
What I have has been in storage for around 50 years and it's in pristine condition because it has not been touched 🦄.
I know it's shocking.. write down the numbers, hopefully, we will all read about it in Vienna next year
Selling on consignment through a reputable camera business such as Popflash, Skyllaney, or others that can check and verify the equipment would be my choice for a piece like this. They likely have a built in customer base to offer the camera to. Selling outright to a camera shop will get 15%~25% of the true value, selling on consignment will get 75% or more. I have no experience with auction houses, if you do- will be interested in how this turns out. I know of one person with an original 50/1.2 Noctilux that was offered 1/4th the price by a camera shop that Skyllaney was able to get for it.
As far as opinions offered here- some sour grapes, some jealousy. And a lot of other people's opinions offered on the Internet, that is what scrolling is for.
Deardorff38
Mentor
As we know, the market for high dollar collectibles is very small. Companies like Tamarkin & Leica Store Vienna, swim in that pool. Although listed prices are high, those are asking, not selling prices. Sometimes items can sit for a long time before the one right customer comes along. That's why so much is sold at auction or on consignment, and why as a seller you realize much less if you try to sell outright. A small operation can easily tie up a lot of its working capital buying expensive items that sit for while. It's the same if you try to sell your expensive car back to a dealer.
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Ororaro
Well-known
?
My pristine M2 bp kit with Leicavit bp, as well as M4 bp, surely agree with what I say. Do you have a mint M2 BP next to you?
Not at the moment 😅 but I’ve handled hundreds of Leicas over the years of all types, common to rare to extremely rare collectibles, and would never confuse a black paint M body of any year or model with a black chrome body. Speaking of both modern new in the box or new, unused, old stock.
Erik van Straten
Mentor
Yes, I agree fully with this, but I assume that the people who deal with this issue can only be taken seriously if they see the difference between black paint and black chrome.
Richard G
Mentor
There is a great KEH video I watched last night thanks to this thread. Is it an original BP M2? No. Does it matter? No. It's a great camera.
Maybe yours are counterfeit. If you cannot tell the difference between them, how would you know a real one from a fake.
For the OP: welcome to the forum, and sorry about some of the comments made here. Anywhere from sour grapes, envy, etc. And sometimes the worst- someone trying to convince the OP that their piece of equipment may not be authentic, then come in with a low-ball offer. I would take or send your camera to a shop that has expertise with very rare equipment. You can read the varied comments here to judge for yourself good versus bad advice.
Ororaro
Well-known
Guys.
A brand new Black paint M2, M3 and M4, and I mean Brand new and never used(!) is undistinguishable from a black chrome. Just last month I handled one, and it was baffling, as baffling as when I got a New Never used M2 black paint a decade ago.
If you have the chance to handle one of those, BNIB NOS you will be hard pressed to confirm wether its paint or not.
Right here on my desk, I have an original M2-M3 black paint baseplate and a M2-M3 Cold black shoe, both absolutely never used. Besides the grease from my fingers, the untouched spots are matte as matte can be.
The baseplate is blackpaint because I know. But the cold shoe baffles me, I am tempted to day chrome but I can’t bet on it. But why would a M2-M3 cold shoe be black chrome? Okay, maybe a M4 black chrome? Maybe… but again, it’s baffling.
I’m not sure why my first hand experience is received with so much doubt 😂
A brand new Black paint M2, M3 and M4, and I mean Brand new and never used(!) is undistinguishable from a black chrome. Just last month I handled one, and it was baffling, as baffling as when I got a New Never used M2 black paint a decade ago.
If you have the chance to handle one of those, BNIB NOS you will be hard pressed to confirm wether its paint or not.
Right here on my desk, I have an original M2-M3 black paint baseplate and a M2-M3 Cold black shoe, both absolutely never used. Besides the grease from my fingers, the untouched spots are matte as matte can be.
The baseplate is blackpaint because I know. But the cold shoe baffles me, I am tempted to day chrome but I can’t bet on it. But why would a M2-M3 cold shoe be black chrome? Okay, maybe a M4 black chrome? Maybe… but again, it’s baffling.
I’m not sure why my first hand experience is received with so much doubt 😂
Ororaro
Well-known
Because real ones look like I described
I have specifically said
-Brand New M2 M3 M4 Black paint
-Never touched M234 original Black paint
-New old stock M234 black paint
If you ever see a brand new one, never touched, never used, you will be surprised. That paint is matte.
Deardorff38
Mentor
Because our first hand experiences have been completely different & not worth the time to argue about. Some of us were around in the early 70s and bought black paint & black chrome cameras new when they were issued. Believe whatever you like.
As I said...
If you want to think that new black chrome is indistiguishable from new black paint and vice versa, you're free to do so. 😂
If you want to think that new black chrome is indistiguishable from new black paint and vice versa, you're free to do so. 😂
Deardorff38
Mentor
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I dunno, folks. Black chrome, black paint ... eh? It's black. It's a camera.
Leica M4-2 fitted with Color-Skopar 50mm f/2.5
Original finish on 1978 camera.
G
Leica M4-2 fitted with Color-Skopar 50mm f/2.5
Original finish on 1978 camera.
G