Supreme Court favors Peter Turnley

I understood it too...but that thing houses the remains of all that, that person will ever be and the broken hearts of his family.....

big steve...nicely put......maybe Peter should have used a wide angle lens and got in much closer...maybe even do the photo reflecting in the soldiers, mothers eye.....

I know working on the streets, that being kinda like a voyeur is a great way to capture images...but I never forgot that....

the camera is the voyeur, not the photographer......
 
Another aspect to this discussion is the timeliness of the photography. The closer to the subject of the photograph in terms of time, the more offensive and more overtly political. For a very different perspective, consider the notion of locking away all the photographs of the Holocaust. We've all seen horrific and chilling pictures, and while they were in some way objectified by being removed from history by so many decades, most wouldn't dream of not showing them. They achieve a historical importance that, in my opinion, vastly overrides any concerns of appropriateness or respect to the dead.
 
Pablito said:
In today's marketplace, NO ONE makes a lot of money publishing phtography books. Well, maybe a few of the publishers...never the photographers...

Beyond that, I'm really curious what purpose you feel having the photos in the LOC accomplishes if access is so restricted - or, for that matter, why they accepted them with such conditions attached. I'm just trying to understand, I'm not being sarcastic...
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at the time I returned from Nam....after about 4 months I came out of my bedroom...went to my darkroom for 6 months and printed.....I started photographing the antiwar movement because I felt that I had to understand.....I was a hippie when I went in..and a waste when I returned....I hooked up with some guys from the VVAW Viet Nam Veterans against the War......I also had some friends that were pro war...vets etc...

so I had all these prints of the real stuff, I call it that because a few photographers in Nam from AP and UPI helped me process negs and keep my Leicas clean...they would get in the field but not like a grunt....so they always told me that I had the real stuff....

ok, I was told by a guy that my images should be in the Winter Soldier Investigation.....this guy is a well known politician at this very moment....

so, I delivered them to the investigation committee and they used them for evidence and records etc. I maintained all rights and they set up a storage facility for me at the LOC.....that's where the pics live, in an archive that is restricted for any use other than what I deem fit..that was and is still my deal with the comittee and the LOC....

there have been some photographers that have viewed them with me even as recent as 2 years ago but I still have that thing inside me that wants to just let the pics alone....

I think my favorite Civil War Image is the one of Young John Payne sitting in the jail cell just a few hours before his death....it saddens me to look at it.....maybe in 150 years, my pics can do the same for whoever views them...but at this time

there are still to many family members of those friends and soldiers I photographed that don't need to see thier son's death...THAT CLOSE....

I hope you understand....don
 
and then when it's over (for you)...thank the LORD that it wasn't your brother or daughter or son, or father or........
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I respectfully disagree. Why the disconnect? I would hope the 1200 people who attended the funeral, and the greater audience that SEES this photograph, sees it as, this IS my brother, MY daughter, MY son...

Pictures are powerful. Ultimately they may not stop wars and atrocities from happening now and in the future, but I'd like to think that one succeeds if one raises the general public's consciousness and encourages discussions like this one.
 
I think it's good for the nation when images like this are published. Freedoms must be exercised to their fullest extent regularly or they will be deconstructed by those who serve only themselves.

Often it is not popular or pretty and sometimes it's hurtful to others, but, IMO, when news agencies demure to popular opinion or political considerations when deciding what images to present, we are robbed of the privilege to make our own decisions about events that often affect us.

To be sure, images can be used to gerrymander our perceptions about what's going on, but I'd rather have the opportunity to decide for myself what to believe or no.

The fact that The Court still recognizes this right is something of a minor miracle; again IMO.

Eli
 
saxshooter said:
Pictures are powerful. Ultimately they may not stop wars and atrocities from happening now and in the future, but I'd like to think that one succeeds if one raises the general public's consciousness and encourages discussions like this one.
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And then there is History. And Memory.
 
I think the photos are amazing. That photo was not disrespectful of the soldier. In fact, I think the subject of the photo was less the casket and more the honor paid to that family's sacrifice.

I'm sad that the family felt offended by the image and I'll bet the photographer regrets adding to their greif. It was courageous to publish such material. A country should know the costs of the choices made by their leaders. In Canada there was a ban on photographing the arrival of caskets and the funerals of soldiers who died in Afgahnistan. The politicians said the services in Afgahnistan could be photographed, but the rights of greiving families should be respected in Canada. I don't think it was as simple as that and it's certainly not a topic that deserves a black and white rule.

It was a powerful photo essay, and I respect all of the difficult work that the photojournalist must have put into it. That kind of work must be incredibly taxing.
 
M4streetshooter said:
I have thousands of images like that from the Patriot Guard Missions that I've done and will continue to do. I don't think the image should have been published, not because of respect to the family but for respect of "The Fallen Hero." Just because 1200 or so people may have seen that scene in the church, doesn't mean that the general public needs to see it.
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I certainly don't have your experience with this. I would like to understand more. Why do you think this is disrespectful to the image of a fallen hero? In a way, this photo seems a more personal monument to this young man than a photo of a closed coffin, a grave stone, or a memorial monument would be. Honestly, I'm out of my league here. I take cat photos.

My grandfather was a German soldier in the second world war. He would never talk about it. Now that he is reaching the end of his days, he's writing his memoirs. I guess there is something of the experience he would like to leave for the future.
 
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If I had a child die in a a war, I would not want to hide his or her death. I would want the world to know that my child and others were the cost. To die and to be hidden would be a crime.

On a similar vein where we don't seem to mind showing the dead of different people in those other countries, I also find it ironic that we watch war and violence as entertainment, but want it hidden when it is real.
 
we're seeing this photograph divorced from its context as well... that can't help one way or another with the strong feelings on both sides.

It is my understanding that the ruling was that the photograph, in the wider context of the story was newsworthy, and not disrespectful. Especially given that the photographer was there with the full consent of the family and organizers. If we want to point fingers about the publication of the image, you could just as easily point to the family who could have said no. Clearly, they didn't (excepting the biological father, who brought the suit, and I'm guessing was a party to the decision to have a public funeral).

IMO, there is nothing inherent in publication, that means that a person is NOT being treated like a hero. Quite the opposite.
 
Although in general I do not favor open caskets at funerals, this case seems to open various avenues of discussion, depending on whom you listen to. If it was the wish of the family to do it that way, so be it. That was their choice.

As for as whether such a picture should be published, the journalists are going to have their say, and they will be in favor of it. That's why many of us don't buy a lot of what journalism is all about. There is an old saying that it's no news when a dog bites a man, only when a man bites a dog. They are taken with this notion that it is up to them to let the public know what is going on. But do we always need to know?
 
dll927 said:
As for as whether such a picture should be published, the journalists are going to have their say, and they will be in favor of it. That's why many of us don't buy a lot of what journalism is all about. There is an old saying that it's no news when a dog bites a man, only when a man bites a dog. They are taken with this notion that it is up to them to let the public know what is going on. But do we always need to know?
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Absolutely not. We don't need to know. We can just do as we're told, blindly trust all authority and march off the edge of the cliff, like lemmings.

"They are taken with this notion that it is up to them to let the public know what is going on."
---ummmm yeah, that is what journalists DO
 
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This is probably one of the most difficult threads to get through that I have thus far encountered, and I mean that in the best way possible. It is difficult to read due to the fact that I myself have lost very close friends to this war already, as I sure most of us have in some way or another. As well as my Dad being a Vietnam Veteran who made it back alive and was shortly thereafter beat within an inch of his life by anti-war protestors. I wanted to take the time to thank each and every one of the people who have commented on this thread. EVERY post in my opinion has been well mannered, polite, respectful AND passionate. That is a very difficult combination when there are such differing opinions on such a sensitive topic that hits so close to home for so many of us. Again, Thank you all, and kudos for such a touching thread. We can get a little heated here on RFF at times but this proves to me why this is the single best forum of any kind I have found on the net to date.

Ryan
 
Finally images of an American casket being shown to us here in the US, something which was banned by the government at the beginning of the war. I don't think I've seen one until now. As stated by several folks above this is nothing to hide, war has enormous costs that should be very publicly acknowledged and seen, and here in the US anyway we get a very slanted view of that.

I recall at the end of the Vietnam War my Parents and Aunt & Uncle had the TV in our dinding room (unheard of) while one of the networks rolled a list of the US casualties. They saw many names they knew on that list. That was the only time I ever saw all four of them crying, funerals included. Made a very big impression on me- what the 'cost' of war was- that list kept going and going, and it was only US casualties.

I wish that we in the US would be confronted with an image like this for every single death in Iraq.
 
See, this is the main issue....

we are talking about an image of a dead soldier...very easy to forget that he was once very alive....very easy to forget that what really matters is the wants and wishes of his family.

forget about the photograph just for 1 minute....keep his family's feelings in the foreground and then make the judgement for the image.....it's really just rude to go against the family...

I did a shoot for a magazine years ago about rape victums. Spent 6 months making images and actually assisted with the text....after looking at the images and reading the text...we pulled the plug....why, because the subject's feelings, even though we had permission, just didn't need to be exploited. There was a young girl..(9 years old)....the family wanted the story to be told....I made a great portrait of her and they wanted to use it for the cover.....after looking at it and then talking with the child...I stopped it's use in it's tracks...The magazine was upset but I have to answer to myself.....and to a much higher power.....

I think that the casket image is kinda like that...I actually have better ones in my archive from the many funerals I've done...but you ain't never seeing them......I get free reign at the PGR missions only because everyone knows me as a photographer with a soul and a heart....does that mean anything to the media...hell no but I sleep great at night.....

if we make images only for the reason of showing them and not for the reason of emotions, feelings then what the hell are we doing?

And then...we should never forget that, that image is mearly a reflection
of a reality...in this case the reality is a dead son that the family does not
want exploited or advertised.....we should respect their wishes....

The court system looks only at the letter of the law but we as humans must keep the matters of the heart at the front regardless of the law.....

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions, I don't give a hoot what you think of me....but I do know how that family feels firsthand...and will always step up for our fallen hero's even if the Government won't...in fact it's that very government that ruled against the family.....

We as Patriot Guard Riders, hold the flag line regardless of weather
We block from view the idiots that disgrace the funeral, we lead a procession to and from the cemetary and a host of many other things.....

we do this because we care, we do this because the government won't....geeze, our wounded troops barely have medical attention....they barely have the gear to fight the good fight...

at least we as The PGR, support them the best we can on the homefront...

and I as a photographer, document all that I can so that the future generations will not forget....so that we, in this here and now take heed as to what is happening to our troops.....

put yourself in the soldiers father's place and then...decide what is right or wrong with your son's dead body being shown all over the world....at a most private and personal time.....
 
It's hard not to see both points of view on this issue. As a former newspaper pj, I've struggled whether to press the shutter, or publish the photo, in a range of situations from accidents and murder victims, to athletes losing the big game for their team.
I really see your point of view Don, especially with regards to your rape victim story. Not everything newsworthy needs to be shown to the public at large and a family's grief and privacy must be considered.
It's easy for us to to be objective because we're just observers and not involved. I do wonder why the family supposedly gave permission for a photographer to be there but then did not want the photos published but I won't condem them for their choice. On the other hand since they did give permission, I don't believe they were entitled to a lawsuit.
BTW, great work on your website!
 
M4streetshooter, I hope you're not calling Peter Turnley one of "the idiots that disgrace the funeral." From what I understand, the family had no objection to his presence at the funeral, only to the publication of his photographs.
 
shenkerian said:
M4streetshooter, I hope you're not calling Peter Turnley one of "the idiots that disgrace the funeral." From what I understand, the family had no objection to his presence at the funeral, only to the publication of his photographs.
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of course not....he's a great image maker....I'm reffering to the protesters that show up at the funerals....

I won't mention names of either side but I did a mission in June and the protesters showed up.....they had signs like G-D hates your dead son, stuff like that...well we held a flag line to block the protesters from the grieving family's view of them....one of them threw a balloon filled with human excrement at the hearst......man, I have the photograph but will not show it.......except to the inner circle of my command....

that's the idiots I'm talking about....

if you go to their website.....you'll be in shock...trust me...it's like evil...but yet they have the right to protest, we don't stop them but they should remember that the right to freedom and protesting was just paid for by the soldier that they choose to disgrace.....

if you PM me, I'll give the website for the protesters....everyone should be aware of this....later don
 
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