Thorsten Overgaard's new article on M9M

leicapixie said:
i am amazed at all the hype about the Leica Monochrom. A B/W only camera! When i first heard about it, i thought "They're kidding!". Indeed at $8000 plus taxes. The facts that are being spewed by a good photographer is simply making Leica happy.
i have a digital that is only good as B/W. An old Minolta point and shoot. The color is way too red, no matter how adjusted. Used in B/W it is seriously good. Perhaps Leica's NEW sensor has the same problem. No mention who made it.. Kodak, Phase-One..? The good news when i want B/W there is Film. If not De-saturate the color. If you cannot do any of the above, Buy the Monochrom.
Click to expand...

If you desaturate to get B&W you are indeed better off with film....:rolleyes:
 
FrozenInTime said:
I was really hoping they would achieve what you describe - perhaps by replacing the RGB Bayer array with a GreyND / clear array.
That would have given extended dynamic range and maximum resolution in the mid tone areas where both darkened and full light elements can make a contribution.
Click to expand...

The MM sensor is exactly the same sensor as the M9 only with the Bayer filter replaced by a clear one and it has indeed got an extended dynamic range. That is why it has an eminently useful ISO 10.000 and why the base ISO is 320 which is exactly the base ISO of the M9 plus the lack of the filter factor of the Bayer filter.
As it is the same sensor it is obviously made by Truesense.
 
jaapv said:
The MM sensor is exactly the same sensor as the M9 only with the Bayer filter replaced by a clear one and it has indeed got an extended dynamic range. That is why it has an eminently useful ISO 10.000 and why the base ISO is 320 which is exactly the base ISO of the M9 plus the lack of the filter factor of the Bayer filter.
As it is the same sensor it is obviously made by Truesense.
Click to expand...

It remains unclear to me why the MM sensor should have DR superior to the M9. If as you say the sensor electronics are identical, then DR should be set almost entirely by five parameters:

1. Offset.
2. Dark current.
3. Read noise.
4. Full well capacity.
5. Pixel variation (pattern noise; hot and cold pixels).

Parameters 1-4 do NOT change when you take off the Beyer mask.

For parameter 5 you can view the Beyer array as a useful (exploitable) type of predictable pattern noise. The regular grid of the Beyer array should allow for computational extraction of MORE dynamic range over areas of multiple pixels, not less.

Is Leica actually doing something clever here, or are they blowing smoke?

Or is the argument that the lower-efficiency blue pixels tend to have less signal over noise? If so that strikes me as pretty weak sauce, as the blue pixels only cover 25% of the array.

Surely it would not be difficult to paint an ND4 filter over 25% of the pixels, to grab specular highlights, etc.
 
Didn't read the article, won't ever purchase this camera. It is, however, an intriguing entry. Those photos I have seen certainly have a unique signature to my eye that I don't particularly care for. Don't "hate them" like HDR photos, but I think I prefer pics captured in color and tweaked in Photoshop. Certainly, there's a lot more flexibility this way in developing a style of black and white unique to you instead of one that's imposed on you by the equipment you're using. Kudos to Leica on a bold move and doing something unique and interesting.
 
Maybe a good idea to read this review:

http://www.reddotforum.com/content.php/226-Leica-M-Monochrom-Review?


semilog said:
It remains unclear to me why the MM sensor should have DR superior to the M9. If as you say the sensor electronics are identical, than DR should be set almost entirely by five parameters:

1. Offset.
2. Dark current.
3. Read noise.
4. Full well capacity.
5. Pixel variation (pattern noise; hot and cold pixels).

Parameters 1-4 do NOT change when you take off the Beyer mask.

For parameter 5 you can view the Beyer array as a useful (exploitable) type of predictable pattern noise. The regular grid of the Beyer array should allow for computational extraction of MORE dynamic range over areas of multiple pixels, not less.

Is Leica actually doing something clever here, or are they blowing smoke?

Or is the argument that the lower-efficiency blue pixels tend to have less signal over noise? If so that strikes me as pretty weak sauce, as the blue pixels only cover 25% of the array.

Surely it would not be difficult to paint an ND4 filter over 25% of the pixels, to grab specular highlights, etc.
Click to expand...
 
Yes, but the achromatic back is completely different as it is highly IR sensitive. The Monochrom approaches panchromatic film.
 
Thanks Bob, interesting, strange this product hasn't been benchmarked against the M9M signature.
I've also wondered if Leica aren't just using the M9M as a means of reducing the inventory/order book of CCD sensors, in preperation for the inevitable M10.
 
jaapv said:
Maybe a good idea to read this review:

http://www.reddotforum.com/content.php/226-Leica-M-Monochrom-Review?
Click to expand...

Here's the only thing the above link has to say about DR:

With more light falling on the sensor, there is a greater SNR (signal to noise ratio), which results in less noise and more dynamic range.
Click to expand...

That explanation is incorrect except under conditions of underexposure, where one cannot get enough light to utilize the sensor's full well capacity.

It's too dark, or the lens is not fast enough. In other words, when shooting a black cat in a coal bin at midnight, using a WATE, handheld, the M9M will have more DR. But then we're really talking about sensitivity, not DR* at native ISO. Under conditions where the M9 and the M9M are both getting enough light (that is, under conditions of correct exposure** at native ISO) the M9M should have the same or less DR than the M9.

Again, if the M9M does have more DR than the M9, there's some interesting (clever, good) trickery going on and I'd love to understand what it is. So far, I have seen nothing to indicate that that's true.

*Unit: dB, typically indicating the ratio of the maximum recordable signal to the system's integrated root mean squared (RMS) noise level. For a CCD the signal and noise would typically be reported in photoelectrons (holes).

**Under spectrally biased light sources (fluorescent light, sodium lamps, fields of crimson, etc), the M9 will not use its sensor array optimally, but on the other hand, in adequate whitish light with typical subjects and high contrast, the M9 should record more, not less information than the M9M.
 
rodt16s said:
Thanks Bob, interesting, strange this product hasn't been benchmarked against the M9M signature.
I've also wondered if Leica aren't just using the M9M as a means of reducing the inventory/order book of CCD sensors, in preperation for the inevitable M10.
Click to expand...

Rod, companies need extra revenues.. It is possible that even Solms would be able to introduce a new M10 in the oncoming Photokina, it will be rather as a "concept" camera if it would be based on the CMOS but not CCD technology and then it might take again long months until it reaches the shelves to sell. So in the meantime the M9M will "reinforce" the sales. Also until the new production facilities in Wetzlar would start turning out new cameras, the M9 together with the M9M would provide revenues.. A plausible decision, IMO..
 
semilog said:
...Again, if the M9M does have more DR than the M9, there's some interesting (clever, good) trickery going on and I'd love to understand what it is. So far, I have seen nothing to indicate that that's true.....
Click to expand...


There is no trick there, there can not be any trick on the DR.. :)

Leica is not the only manufacturer using Kodak (Platinum Equity) KAF- or KAI-series sensors.. also Leica uses two KAF- series sensors, however the industrial camera manufacturers like JAI, Avigilon, Lumenera, etc. are using dozens of different CCD sensors from Kodak, from a few MP up to 29MP resolution.

These companies employ the SAME sensors in color as well as in monochromatic version. The customers only orders the versions they need and then the sensors with or without color filter array are delivered by the manufacturer accordingly.

The elimination of the CFA from the sensor improves its sensitivity however the DR remains the same at the best.. (sometimes lower a little though..)

The following cameras employ the same family of sensors as the ones used on the M9 and M8, delivered either as color or monochrome, with NO difference in dynamic ranges. This is the same with Avigilon, Lumenera, JAI or any other industrial camera manufacturer and I am in this business since 1998.

Here is a series from 29MP down to 11MP:

AVIGILON: (as example, JAI and Lumenera can be checked too)

29MP Color (Dynamic range: 64dB)

http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/29MP-HD-PRO-C.pdf

29MP Monochrome (Dynamic range: 64dB)
http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/29MP-HD-PRO-M.pdf

16MP Color (Dynamic range: 65dB)
http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/16MP-HD-PRO-C.pdf

16MP Monochrome (Dynamic range: 65dB)
http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/16MP-HD-PRO-M.pdf

11MP Color (Dynamic range: 66dB)
http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/11MP-HD-PRO-C.pdf

11MP Monochrome (Dynamic range: 66dB)
http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/11MP-HD-PRO-M.pdf


 
Nice idea but!

Nice idea but!

It seems the MM is a nice idea, but for 8K most want some flexibility in their systems. I want much better high ISO, thats it. The resolution of the M9 is more than enough. Hell, while I am at it, I have to confess I am tempted by the D800 for the price. Every few years, I go through this mad feeling of being ripped off by Leica and seeing more value in nikon or Canon. The only thing that keeps me in the M system is I have 20 years of collecting M lenses. Now if only someone would also offer a mirrorless body that has a moving sensor for autofocus and great high ISO for under 4K!
 
BobYIL said:
There is no trick there, there can not be any trick on the DR.. :)

Leica is not the only manufacturer using Kodak (Platinum Equity) KAF- or KAI-series sensors.
Click to expand...

Yup. I have a camera with a KAF series sensor mounted on one of the microscopes in my laboratory. We also have cameras with CCD or EM-CCD sensors made by Sony and Marconi/E2V (think $30,000 for a 0.25 megapixel camera; but one that runs at -85°C and can be operated in single-photon counting mode at video frame rates).

Also, I still have an Oly E-500 with a Kodak sensor. With the right lenses that camera delivers amazingly pleasant results.

:D
 
eleskin said:
It seems the MM is a nice idea, but for 8K most want some flexibility in their systems. I want much better high ISO, thats it. The resolution of the M9 is more than enough. Hell, while I am at it, I have to confess I am tempted by the D800 for the price. Every few years, I go through this mad feeling of being ripped off by Leica and seeing more value in nikon or Canon. The only thing that keeps me in the M system is I have 20 years of collecting M lenses. Now if only someone would also offer a mirrorless body that has a moving sensor for autofocus and great high ISO for under 4K!
Click to expand...
:confused:Clean 6400 and perfect 10.000 not good enough? Or you want color - that will set you back 7500 Euro for the M10 ;):p
 
jaapv said:
...Initially I thought the pictures by Jacob Aue Sobol were a very poor choice to showcase the camera. Until I tried to replicate the look he got with M9 files. Completely impossible. And found that over time they were haunting in the starkness he achieved..
Click to expand...
As I tend to do high contrast, I've been looking at the Jacob Aue Sobol pictures with the M-Monochrom as well. Then I also processed some of the M-Monocnrom files that Jono Slack has provided and feel that I am able to get the look that I want, which I could not get with an M9 or an M8: high contrast, deep blacks, combined with beautiful mid tones and highlights — all this by shooting for the highlights and lifting the shadows while apply the new black slider strongly in Lightroom 4.1. With this experience, I want to get this camera.

The only doubts are about the cruddy 250,000 dot LCD, on which you cannot really judge exposure but are limited to using the (large) histogram — important because there is no possibility for highlight recovery — AFTER the shot because there is no Live View. In this respect, am also wondering what the M10 will bring at Photokina — how will it differ for B&W?

—Mitch/Chiang Mai
Scratching the Surface
 
malland said:
....

The only doubts are about the cruddy 250,000 dot LCD, on which you cannot really judge exposure but are limited to using the (large) histogram — important because there is no possibility for highlight recovery — AFTER the shot because there is no Live View. In this respect, am also wondering what the M10 will bring at Photokina — how will it differ for B&W?

—Mitch/Chiang Mai
Scratching the Surface
Click to expand...
If I'm not mistaken in the Steve Huff review there was a description of the review feature to indicate over-/underexposeure marked blue/red and you can even choose the stops. This tool will be much more exact than an on screen evaluation by trying to judge the shot directly.
 
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