an absolute statement

gns said:
and...?

Look, you don't have to be a painter (or a photographer) to observe that in painting you put the marks down one at a time (and can make decisions & changes as you go), and in photography, you make them all at once (and finally).

Are you saying that you plan out every brush stroke in your head beforehand and then simply execute that plan?
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... fine :) believe what you like ... you clearly don't need any advice
 
"Perspective" as in spatial relationships, or as in viewpoint? It's unclear. But if you mean the latter, I suggest that timing (and just about everything else) is embedded there.

John
 
Gabriel M.A. said:
Like when sin(x)/x when x = 0, then sin(x)/x = 1, because 0/0 = 1 !

Details and facts notwithstanding :D
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By definition, anything divided by 0 is an undefined quantity. 0/0 does not equal 1; it is undefined. Similarly, sin(x)/x is undefined when x=0.

Sorry, but those are the facts of Mathematics. There is no contradiction of proof and absolute truth.

G
 
johnwolf said:
"Perspective" as in spatial relationships, or as in viewpoint? It's unclear. But if you mean the latter, I suggest that timing (and just about everything else) is embedded there.

John
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Perspective is simply the Planer Projection ... we call it perspective when we find it intuitive, and converging verticals when we don't

Our eyes are pretty simple lenses, but the brain they're connected to runs a very sophisticated version of photoshop ... so in effect we see what we think we see and no camera can do that
 
Godfrey said:
By definition, anything divided by 0 is an undefined quantity. 0/0 does not equal 1; it is undefined. Similarly, sin(x)/x is undefined when x=0.

Sorry, but those are the facts of Mathematics. There is no contradiction of proof and absolute truth.

G
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http://press.princeton.edu/books/maor/chapter_10.pdf


Disclaimer: my point is that anybody with information that is actually true can make absolute statements that are false (well, not exactly false, but not exactly absolutely true) that need further context. Like "in photography, you make {decisions & changes} all at once (and finally)."


This photo took over three weeks for me to make all "decisions & changes":


I guess you can argue that the exception makes the absolute rule always forever and ever?

Disclaimer #2: the above photo did not involve "copying and pasting", as all elements are as-is and composited.

Disclaimer #3: "as-is" means "unmanufactured"/photographed exactly as they appear, where they appear, when they appear...

Disclaimer #4: I know there will be an Absolutist that will claim the above is not a photograph (and a "who cares?!"-ist who won't see the point of anything contained within this post).

Disclaimer #5: Yes, Photoshop.
 
Godfrey said:
By definition, anything divided by 0 is an undefined quantity.
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Wait a minute...something undefined isn't by definition undefined! It's undefined! There are no loopholes in Absolutism! Anything is, and nothing isn't. Nothing can't be something, and something can't be nothing, otherwise we fall into grey areas, and the very absolute nature of "you're either with us or you're against us" does not allow any of this non-black-and-whiteish mumbo jumbo!

Something that is is, and nothing cannot be lest it ceases to and begins to and whoa man that stuff's heavy man! Which is exactly why they won't legalize cannabis because it is absolutely out of the question, and the question cannot be answered 'cause the flight plan isn't there man, you can't take off and begin to expand your horizons man...

:D

But seriously, undefined isn't defined. :cool:


Godfrey said:
Sorry, but those are the facts of Mathematics.
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Hey, Lobachevsky had something to say about that ;)
 
Godfrey said:
Except in Mathematics, the domain of provable truths. Only in Mathematics can you prove that a theorem is true, absolutely and forever.

G
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Didn't Godel haven't something to say about this? True but sometimes unprovable? Something like that...
 
Gabriel M.A. said:
http://press.princeton.edu/books/maor/chapter_10.pdf


Disclaimer: my point is that anybody with information that is actually true can make absolute statements that are false (well, not exactly false, but not exactly absolutely true) that need further context. Like "in photography, you make {decisions & changes} all at once (and finally)."


This photo took over three weeks for me to make all "decisions & changes":
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OK, you know what I mean. I'm talking about straightforward, camera made images. This picture goes beyond the basic photographic process into something else, more akin to collage.
 
Sparrow said:
... fine :) believe what you like ... you clearly don't need any advice
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Come on Stew. You think the statement you were responding to is a matter of belief?
And I don't think any of the posts here were about seeking or giving advice. It's just a discussion of what matters in the process of making photos.
 
Gabriel M.A. said:
Wait a minute...something undefined isn't by definition undefined! It's undefined! There are no loopholes in Absolutism! Anything is, and nothing isn't. Nothing can't be something, and something can't be nothing, otherwise we fall into grey areas, and the very absolute nature of "you're either with us or you're against us" does not allow any of this non-black-and-whiteish mumbo jumbo!

Something that is is, and nothing cannot be lest it ceases to and begins to and whoa man that stuff's heavy man! Which is exactly why they won't legalize cannabis because it is absolutely out of the question, and the question cannot be answered 'cause the flight plan isn't there man, you can't take off and begin to expand your horizons man...

:D

But seriously, undefined isn't defined. :cool:

Hey, Lobachevsky had something to say about that ;)
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Sorry. I have neither energy nor time to explain at present. Needless to say, your comments are either indicative of a lack of understanding of Mathematics, or you just want to argue to be funny. Sorry also if my sense of humor is lacking at the moment.

Simply stated, *everything* in Mathematics is defined or stated as axiom, even that which is defined to be undefined. That's why it is possible to construct a proof that has absolute proof. It's also why you can remove some types of singularities, like the value of the function sin x/x when x=0, and define the value at that point to be a specific constant.

G
 
benlees said:
Didn't Godel haven't something to say about this? True but sometimes unprovable? Something like that...
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If I recall correctly, Gödel's theorem and proof is that the system of formal proof which is Mathematics cannot encompass a complete proof of the system itself. This does not undermine the notion that Mathematics cannot prove a great number of things in absolute terms.

G
 
Godfrey said:
Sorry. I have neither energy nor time to explain at present. Needless to say, your comments are either indicative of a lack of understanding of Mathematics, or you just want to argue to be funny.
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Well, yes, I was always slow at advanced Math(s), and the (other) point wasn't exactly to be funny, but to poke fun at people who are too sure of themselves to make absolute statements. And yes, me guilty of that like most everyone else. But wisdom lets us know when we're stepping in our own goo (i.e. arguments).


Godfrey said:
Sorry also if my sense of humor is lacking at the moment.
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No problem. Mine is solar-powered too.


Godfrey said:
Simply stated, *everything* in Mathematics is defined or stated as axiom, even that which is defined to be undefined. That's why it is possible to construct a proof that has absolute proof. It's also why you can remove some types of singularities, like the value of the function sin x/x when x=0, and define the value at that point to be a specific constant.
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Hence caveats and details. One should not make absolute statements; history has shown that there's a beginning and an end to just about everything; it doesn't mean that Truth ceases to be (if it ever was), it just means that an absolute statement cannot encompass everything it's trying to encompass.

Mathematics are a human language that represent concepts. The concepts may be absolutely true, but the language we use for them has certain flaws that we cannot make absolutely absolute statements with it.

This is where we err: that a statement is true a billion times out of a billion and one is not an absolute statement; it represents a truth but it's not an absolute truth.

1 = 1 is absolutely true, as far as we know. It is true because it is a concept defined by itself; so circular and tight you cannot break it.

Sin(0)/0 = 1 is true. That 0/0 = undefined is also true. Absolutists would stop there and claim the first statement is false.

As you frustratingly stated, there's no time to explain and we could go on but you and I know the snooze-fest that would be.

The point is that you can argue to death that your point is true, but to debunk an absolute statement takes energy. I wonder if there's a formula to describe the amount of energy it takes to dispute an absolute statement. Surely Cognitive Dissonance is one of the variables.

Anyway, extremely long rant short: no absolute statement is true. It may be true beyond our lifetimes, but it is bound to be disproved. Language is flawed, and like Simon said, it's meant to convey an idea. Language evolves partly when we know when it (language) cannot state or no longer states what it meant. If language were absolutely true it would never mutate. And that is just based on a hypothesis. ;)
 
Gabriel M.A. said:
...
Anyway, extremely long rant short: no absolute statement is true.
...
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Unfortunately, I cannot agree with your conclusion with respect to mathematical proof because it is simply incorrect. However, as stated last evening, I haven't the time nor energy to articulate a response ... I have too many other things to do today of greater importance, and cannot afford to divert my attention.

As you said, discussing mathematical logic and proof takes a lot of energy and focus ... I was a student of theoretical mathematics and took my degree in the subject. I loved it, it's a particularly entertaining and involving challenge to me, but I was a lot younger then with seeming boundless energy to expend on the pursuit.

G
 
While we are in for absolute statements I would simply like to declare that nothing matters in photography.
 
Everything depends on what a person believe.
Which originates from the person's perspective (in life, not in geometry).

And yes, that's an absolute statement.
The question is, absolute under what authority?
 
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