herxai
Newbie
Greetings,
I have the opportunity to hold and own both the Bronica RF645 w/ 65mm and the Mamiya 7 w/ 50mm in the next few days. I am shooting landscape and portraits most of the time.
I find the Bronica superior in handling and portraits, but the Mamiya wins in IQ and focusing.
To be frank here are my options. Please tell me which you think is best and why, thanks!
1. Keep Bronica for portraits and sell Mamiya and then buy 45mm for landscapes for Bronica.
2. Keep Mamiya for landscapes and sell Bronica and then buy 150mm for portraits for Mamiya.
3. Keep both, Bronica for portraits and Mamiya for landscape
Thanks!
Edit: Please provide other thoughts/criticisms if you have any.
I have the opportunity to hold and own both the Bronica RF645 w/ 65mm and the Mamiya 7 w/ 50mm in the next few days. I am shooting landscape and portraits most of the time.
I find the Bronica superior in handling and portraits, but the Mamiya wins in IQ and focusing.
To be frank here are my options. Please tell me which you think is best and why, thanks!
1. Keep Bronica for portraits and sell Mamiya and then buy 45mm for landscapes for Bronica.
2. Keep Mamiya for landscapes and sell Bronica and then buy 150mm for portraits for Mamiya.
3. Keep both, Bronica for portraits and Mamiya for landscape
Thanks!
Edit: Please provide other thoughts/criticisms if you have any.
GaryLH
Mentor
I have had the Bronica rf and really like it.. But voted both because I really like a bigger negative for landscape stuff. I actually prefer a 6x9 negative though. The Bronica vertical format is a natural for portrait work...
A word of warning though.. The Bronica rf came w/ two versions of the finder. Originally the finder was setup to handle up to a 135.. But there were issues w/ 135 production which I cannot remember right now the reason. Later they sold a finder setup for the 100... It is much easier to find the 100mm lens.
Gary
A word of warning though.. The Bronica rf came w/ two versions of the finder. Originally the finder was setup to handle up to a 135.. But there were issues w/ 135 production which I cannot remember right now the reason. Later they sold a finder setup for the 100... It is much easier to find the 100mm lens.
Gary
jim_jm
Well-known
Apparently Bronica discovered that the RF was not accurate enough to focus a 135 lens reliably. They discontinued that lens and modified the framelines for a 100.
I'm very happy with my RF645 and it's now my main hiking and backpacking camera. I'd love to try a Mamiya 7, but prices have remained so high, I don't see much of a benefit (to me) for the added cost. For landscapes, I can see that the 6x7 landscape format would be handy though.
bwcolor
Mentor
I've both. Purchase both and use them and then decide what to do. It would be different should you only have money for one. You can always sell one, especially the Mamiya.
Matus
Well-known
Keep Bronica for portraits and travel and get Fuji GW690 for landscapes. What about that! 
rhl-oregon
Cameras Guitars Wonders
Multiplying one's cameras is fun until it's like running a daycare with only one teacher. Although I have the Bronica (and love it), and a GW690 and a Fuji670, I'm trying to simplify, and I have heard one or another version of this tune from many other folks.
So I would stick to the Mamiya if that's your IQ/focusing winner, and invest in lenses.
So I would stick to the Mamiya if that's your IQ/focusing winner, and invest in lenses.
skibeerr
Well-known
For hiking, travel etc, definitively Bronica RF. (the 100mm is a great portrait lens)
For all the rest Mamiya 7
Bear in mind that lenses end all the rest are much easier to find for the Mamiya.
How about the Mamiya 6, not trying to confuse you more but it has the best of both Bron and 7 except on the wide side.
For all the rest Mamiya 7
Bear in mind that lenses end all the rest are much easier to find for the Mamiya.
How about the Mamiya 6, not trying to confuse you more but it has the best of both Bron and 7 except on the wide side.
herxai
Newbie
Thanks everyone!
As of right now, I actually don't mind keeping both of them =). But as rhl said, I will probably become attracted towards one system.
As for the Mamiya 6, true. I could just sell both and go for a 6 system. But then, I print in rectangle, so the 6x6 would probably make it next 6x45 anyways.
As of right now, I actually don't mind keeping both of them =). But as rhl said, I will probably become attracted towards one system.
As for the Mamiya 6, true. I could just sell both and go for a 6 system. But then, I print in rectangle, so the 6x6 would probably make it next 6x45 anyways.
Bobfrance
Over Exposed
Congrats on the new camera.
I personally think that the Mamiya 7 is up there with some of the best cameras in the world, but it is hourses for sourses as they say and it is worth bearing in mind that, like all rangefinders, the Mamiya 7 doesn't have a particularly close focusing distance. The 150mm lens has a greater minimal focusing than say the 80mm which generally means that you fit the same amount in the fame using either lens.
This image was shot using a Mamiya 7ii with the 150mm lens (Portra 400)
Untitled by Bobfrance, on Flickr
Like all Mamiya 7 lenses it is devastatingly sharp (clinical you might say) and cropping from the 6x7 wouldn't be a problem but I feel rangefinders do lack some of the intimacy of a close focusing SLR such as a Hasselblad or a Mamiya RZ67 for instance.
However when it comes to shooting landscape the Mamiya 7 comes into it's own. I think this shot goes some way towards demonstrating how nice it is.
Untitled by Bobfrance, on Flickr
Not bad from a moving gondola either...
Untitled by Bobfrance, on Flickr
...and to be fair you can still get pretty close with it if you like more wide-angled portraits.
Untitled by Bobfrance, on Flickr
It's probably unfair to compare it to your little Bronica - it does shoot a 6x7 neg after all, and as such, is the smallest, lightest, fast shooting, 6x7 film camera there is (and will probably ever be). I wouldn't be without mine.
I shoot a Rolleiflex when I want something smaller to fit in my bag.
Bob.
I personally think that the Mamiya 7 is up there with some of the best cameras in the world, but it is hourses for sourses as they say and it is worth bearing in mind that, like all rangefinders, the Mamiya 7 doesn't have a particularly close focusing distance. The 150mm lens has a greater minimal focusing than say the 80mm which generally means that you fit the same amount in the fame using either lens.
This image was shot using a Mamiya 7ii with the 150mm lens (Portra 400)
Untitled by Bobfrance, on Flickr
Like all Mamiya 7 lenses it is devastatingly sharp (clinical you might say) and cropping from the 6x7 wouldn't be a problem but I feel rangefinders do lack some of the intimacy of a close focusing SLR such as a Hasselblad or a Mamiya RZ67 for instance.
However when it comes to shooting landscape the Mamiya 7 comes into it's own. I think this shot goes some way towards demonstrating how nice it is.
Untitled by Bobfrance, on Flickr
Not bad from a moving gondola either...
Untitled by Bobfrance, on Flickr
...and to be fair you can still get pretty close with it if you like more wide-angled portraits.
Untitled by Bobfrance, on Flickr
It's probably unfair to compare it to your little Bronica - it does shoot a 6x7 neg after all, and as such, is the smallest, lightest, fast shooting, 6x7 film camera there is (and will probably ever be). I wouldn't be without mine.
I shoot a Rolleiflex when I want something smaller to fit in my bag.
Bob.
Takkun
Ian M.
That's a fantastic analogy.
I personally don't like having a lot of redundancy with my kit, aside from having a 'backup' body within the same system, perhaps. Hence why I'm purging the little piles of Canon, Contax, etc stashed away.
You might find that you'll end up gravitating towards one or the other, and that will probably be the keeper. Personally, I don't think I could get used to a vertical finder.
jbrubaker
Established
I've owned both the Bronica RF645 and Mamiya 7 (twice), but I sold them both and now have a Fuji GF670. Since I found that I was using the normal lenses most of the time anyway, the Fuji is perfect. It has a wonderful viewfinder, and is very compact when folded. ---john.
Spanik
Well-known
Strange question to me. 6x4.5 and 6x7 are so different that it doesn't make sense to me to limit each size to a specific purpose.
I don't really like 6x7 myself (got a Fuji GM670) but I'd use it more for portraits than landscape. In that case I'd get something longer than 50mm which is already on the wide side of things. On the other hand I do like 6x4.5 for general use including landscape as for me the proportion feels better. But the RF645 with its 45mm isn't that wide (and with the viewfinder not very userfriendly) while the 100mm is limit shortish for portraits. I do agree with you that the RF645 is great to handle.
I don't really like 6x7 myself (got a Fuji GM670) but I'd use it more for portraits than landscape. In that case I'd get something longer than 50mm which is already on the wide side of things. On the other hand I do like 6x4.5 for general use including landscape as for me the proportion feels better. But the RF645 with its 45mm isn't that wide (and with the viewfinder not very userfriendly) while the 100mm is limit shortish for portraits. I do agree with you that the RF645 is great to handle.
herxai
Newbie
Bobfrance, thanks for the inspiring photos. They look great. I will have to upload some of mine too as soon as I go through a roll or two.
Spanik, I agree. They are very different, that is why I had an option keeping both of them. The Bronica is vertical and has a bigger crop factor, imo that implies easier handling for portraits. The Mamiya has a lower crop factor and capture more detail, therefore I think it will serve better as a landscape camera. I won't be extremely particular and only one for one task.
I'm planning on using the 50mm on the Mamiya for landscape so it being wide is a good thing and I'm not planning on getting the 45mm for the Bronica.
Spanik, I agree. They are very different, that is why I had an option keeping both of them. The Bronica is vertical and has a bigger crop factor, imo that implies easier handling for portraits. The Mamiya has a lower crop factor and capture more detail, therefore I think it will serve better as a landscape camera. I won't be extremely particular and only one for one task.
I'm planning on using the 50mm on the Mamiya for landscape so it being wide is a good thing and I'm not planning on getting the 45mm for the Bronica.
Spanik
Well-known
They are NOT crop factors! They are different formats. Do not think about them as APS-C and FF. Nobody amuses himself (or herself) to calculate equivalent anything with MF. You leave the DPR scene when going to MF.
The thing about detail is only when you start enlarging. Even then with normal enlargements it will not be that big a difference.
Yes, the RF is vertical but the 100mm is (for me) the limit for portraits. Even on 6x4.5 I like 150mm or longer. While 45mm is just wide enough sometimes for landscape. Even with 6x4.5 I go to 35mm regulary for landscape or in the city.
Now on 6x6 I find a 50mm also just a so-and-so wide, I prefer 45mm. Or for portrait 180mm. And on 6x9 I go to 50mm for landscape or city and 100 for portraits. I do have 6x7 but I find it a very difficult format. It isn't square and it isn't rectangular. But for portraits it might work. Should force myself to use it.
Now a lot of this is personal, even very personal. But while I can not fault the RF for delivering I cannot think of it otherwise as a camera with a normal lens. And one a little bit wider and one a little bit longer. But very often not enough difference to make the effort to use those other lenses.
The thing about detail is only when you start enlarging. Even then with normal enlargements it will not be that big a difference.
Yes, the RF is vertical but the 100mm is (for me) the limit for portraits. Even on 6x4.5 I like 150mm or longer. While 45mm is just wide enough sometimes for landscape. Even with 6x4.5 I go to 35mm regulary for landscape or in the city.
Now on 6x6 I find a 50mm also just a so-and-so wide, I prefer 45mm. Or for portrait 180mm. And on 6x9 I go to 50mm for landscape or city and 100 for portraits. I do have 6x7 but I find it a very difficult format. It isn't square and it isn't rectangular. But for portraits it might work. Should force myself to use it.
Now a lot of this is personal, even very personal. But while I can not fault the RF for delivering I cannot think of it otherwise as a camera with a normal lens. And one a little bit wider and one a little bit longer. But very often not enough difference to make the effort to use those other lenses.
KenR
Well-known
I had nothing but trouble with my Bronica and ended up selling it and buying a Mamiya 6 instead. The build quality is much better in the Mamiya. I assume that the 7 is of equal quality, so I recommended selling the Bronica and getting another lens for the Mamiya.
herxai
Newbie
Spanik, I don't want to get into a debate here but here goes...
Sorry for the digital lingo. What I meant was that the focal lengths are different for 645 vs 67. 65mm on the 645 is closer than 65mm on the Mamiya 7.
About details, I think the reason why people shoot medium format is to enlarge. Who would shoot medium format and keep their images small? There can and often be clear differences between different MF setups of cameras, formats, and lenses.
Again, I'm not using the 45mm or planning to buy it. I have the 65mm which works out fine for portraits. I would get the 100mm, but its difficult to find.
Why is 50mm on the Mamiya7 too wide for you and you would use 35mm and 45mm on the 6x45. 50mm on the Mamiya7 is between 35 and 45mm on the 6x45.
Kenr, what troubles did you find with the Bronica? It would be nice to know. Thanks!
Sorry for the digital lingo. What I meant was that the focal lengths are different for 645 vs 67. 65mm on the 645 is closer than 65mm on the Mamiya 7.
About details, I think the reason why people shoot medium format is to enlarge. Who would shoot medium format and keep their images small? There can and often be clear differences between different MF setups of cameras, formats, and lenses.
Again, I'm not using the 45mm or planning to buy it. I have the 65mm which works out fine for portraits. I would get the 100mm, but its difficult to find.
Why is 50mm on the Mamiya7 too wide for you and you would use 35mm and 45mm on the 6x45. 50mm on the Mamiya7 is between 35 and 45mm on the 6x45.
Kenr, what troubles did you find with the Bronica? It would be nice to know. Thanks!
KenR
Well-known
Bronica 645
Bronica 645
The first time that I took a walk with the Bronica the battery compartment (held closed by tiny plastic latches) opened accidently leaving me with a dead camera as I didn't take any spare batteries with me (prompting tape over the battery door). Every time that I used it, I found that the exposure compensation dial on the back would move around, prompting much unintentional over and under exposure (prompting more tape over the compensation dial). The vertical set of the rangefinder would move out of synch if you touched the camera, so I learned to ignore the slight but annoying misallignment. But when the film advance died while I was on a hiking vacation in Colorado I decided to get rid of it. My Mamiya 6 has been in for routine service, but otherwise has been trouble free.
Bronica 645
The first time that I took a walk with the Bronica the battery compartment (held closed by tiny plastic latches) opened accidently leaving me with a dead camera as I didn't take any spare batteries with me (prompting tape over the battery door). Every time that I used it, I found that the exposure compensation dial on the back would move around, prompting much unintentional over and under exposure (prompting more tape over the compensation dial). The vertical set of the rangefinder would move out of synch if you touched the camera, so I learned to ignore the slight but annoying misallignment. But when the film advance died while I was on a hiking vacation in Colorado I decided to get rid of it. My Mamiya 6 has been in for routine service, but otherwise has been trouble free.
stip80
Member
Bronica 100mm lens focus way closer than mamiya 150mm lens, thus a better system for portrait photography imo (not to mention the vertical default orientation).
mfogiel
Mentor
I would say, that after extensive amount of trial and error, after trying almost all formats ( from 18x24mm to 4x5'), and trying rangefinders, TLR's and SLR's, my conclusions would be as follows:
1) Bronica RF, as long as you don't have issues with winding film, equipped with the 65mm lens, is probably the most useful MF rangefinder ever made. It is good for landscape, travel, and environmental portrait, without the pretense to make head and shoulders or closer framings. However, for real portraiture, an SLR would be infinitely superior. The 45mm lens is great, so is the 100mm, but both have their problems (ext. vf for the 45 and bulk and imprecise focusing for the 100). I find, that seeking a bigger format would only be justified, if you would habitually like to print bigger than 16x20.
2) For MF portraiture, a camera that lets you focus on any part of the image with precision, has lenses with shallow dof and has good lenses in the normal to long range would be preferable. Depending on what portability you prefer, you have a choice between Fuji GX680 (ultra huge), mamiya RB/RZ 67 (huge), Pentax 67 (big, but manageable), Bronica 6x7 or 6x6 (big), Hasselblad F or V (biggish), various TLR's (Mamiya is particularly interesting, because of the lens range) (all have some limitations, and are not really smaller than a Hassy) and finally 6x45 like Contax 645, Bronica, Mamiya or Pentax. The best 645 by far is the Contax, but also quite expensive. My choice would be Pentax 645N, for the incredibly bright and precise VF, fantastic lenses (75,120,150,200), and possibility to adapt easily lenses from Pentax 67 or Hasselblad, etc.
In portraiture, the preferable way of thinking, would be to start with the format, then lens, and finally choose the body. A perfect FL for portraiture, for me, is in the range between 1,25 and 1.5 times the diagonal, so for 645 it would be between 90 and 105mm, for 6x6 between 100 and 120, for 6x7 between 110 and 135mm. A great starting point on the cheap would be a Pentax 645 with the P67 90/2.8 or 105/2.4 on adapter, or mamiya C330 with the 105/3.5.
Contax 645 with 80/2 wide open
MF20143302 by mfogiel, on Flickr
Pentax 645N with P67 90/2.8 wide open
MF20122801 by mfogiel, on Flickr
1) Bronica RF, as long as you don't have issues with winding film, equipped with the 65mm lens, is probably the most useful MF rangefinder ever made. It is good for landscape, travel, and environmental portrait, without the pretense to make head and shoulders or closer framings. However, for real portraiture, an SLR would be infinitely superior. The 45mm lens is great, so is the 100mm, but both have their problems (ext. vf for the 45 and bulk and imprecise focusing for the 100). I find, that seeking a bigger format would only be justified, if you would habitually like to print bigger than 16x20.
2) For MF portraiture, a camera that lets you focus on any part of the image with precision, has lenses with shallow dof and has good lenses in the normal to long range would be preferable. Depending on what portability you prefer, you have a choice between Fuji GX680 (ultra huge), mamiya RB/RZ 67 (huge), Pentax 67 (big, but manageable), Bronica 6x7 or 6x6 (big), Hasselblad F or V (biggish), various TLR's (Mamiya is particularly interesting, because of the lens range) (all have some limitations, and are not really smaller than a Hassy) and finally 6x45 like Contax 645, Bronica, Mamiya or Pentax. The best 645 by far is the Contax, but also quite expensive. My choice would be Pentax 645N, for the incredibly bright and precise VF, fantastic lenses (75,120,150,200), and possibility to adapt easily lenses from Pentax 67 or Hasselblad, etc.
In portraiture, the preferable way of thinking, would be to start with the format, then lens, and finally choose the body. A perfect FL for portraiture, for me, is in the range between 1,25 and 1.5 times the diagonal, so for 645 it would be between 90 and 105mm, for 6x6 between 100 and 120, for 6x7 between 110 and 135mm. A great starting point on the cheap would be a Pentax 645 with the P67 90/2.8 or 105/2.4 on adapter, or mamiya C330 with the 105/3.5.
Contax 645 with 80/2 wide open
MF20143302 by mfogiel, on FlickrPentax 645N with P67 90/2.8 wide open
MF20122801 by mfogiel, on Flickr
f16sunshine
Moderator
^^Both are beautiful Portraits. That second one is especially lovely.
A Very pretty woman whom you captured in a natural way.
A Very pretty woman whom you captured in a natural way.