Sparrow
Mentor
You didn't feel the first part of the question needed an answer then? this bit ...
"so it's OK for these people to defraud others then? ... as long as you personally are bright enough, or you are lucky enough to not lose out yourself by their actions?"
... it seems to me that this is the crucial part, many people (possibly me included) who have money in various trusts and funds may very well be invested with people like this, should they really remain unprotected just so that you can retain the "option to make (your) own decisions"?
paulfish4570
Mentor
randy, this situation will only get worse. the entitlement mindset has crept upwards as well as downwards; outwards as well as inwards. individualism has been replaced by meism. it knows no bounds, business, government, or otherwise.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Do you think that Kodak and its management "defrauded" others? I don't. I think they made some bad business decisions but everyone was completely aware of all the facts. They did not deceive or cheat anyone.
FWIW, I certainly am not bright enough or lucky enough in all situations such as this.
Noll
Well-known
I disagree. Fuji's C41 offerings are not all there anymore, and their 'commitment' to film does not inspire confidence (not that Kodak does either). Losing Ektar or Portra 160, and a major film manufacturer at this point, accelerated by gross incompetence, is a bitter pill.
Randy, Right on with your posts. I'm not sure anyone knows how some people come to run large companies.
Bob and Sparrow, I get the feeling you're debating different sides of the same coin here. Just as we have high expectations for our government to be effective, responsible, and protect freedom of choice, we have equally high expectations for the people who run business to operate in socially and morally responsible ways. When either fails to do so, it is a loss to society at large.
Vics
Mentor
I was thinking of defending these folks, then I noticed that of the four choices I'm testing for a switch from Tri-X to 100 ISO, none is a Kodak product, so...
zauhar
Mentor
Paul, I don't really agree. I see plenty of people who strive hard to do their jobs well, and basically just hope to live decently - I am sure you do too.
The blame lays at the feet of the people at the top who are disconnected, clueless, self-involved, and not capable of supplying authentic leadership. Real leadership can only come from those who know their product or service, and have earned the respect of those they lead. Professional managers, almost by definition, do not meet those simple criteria.
By the why Paul, everyone complains about "entitlements" - what do you have in mind? I think of the guy next door to me with mental issues who does get a housing voucher, help with his meds, and busies himself looking for odd jobs. I think he is doing about as much as he is capable of. Do we want him living on the sidewalk? Speaking of which, I see plenty of people who live on the sidewalk, and others who were camping in the local park before they were chased away - how come they don't just sign up for their generous entitlements?
I hope you are not talking about social security? Our elders paid into that their whole lives expecting a modest retirement (and that is ALL it provides). The retirement age is being steadily pushed up, so we can all look forward to pretty much working until we drop dead. How about medicaid? That's the last lifeline for the poor and sick, and as it is many people succumb because they can't get that lousy level of help.
The pundits in the Wall Street Journal and the NY Times who complain about "entitlements" remind me of the story I read about a British aristocrat who worked for MI6. A visitor to his home saw a tall stack of government-issued envelopes on a table by his doorway, and asked him what they were. He said "Oh, those are my paychecks, I haven't gotten round to taking them to the bank". To people like that, a social security check is loose change, to others it is the difference between life and death.
Randy
jarski
Mentor
too bad results dont speak for themselves...
oftheherd
Mentor
Well, the link from the other thread on this implies that he has ensured the board an top executives are being well taken care of too. That should ensure they don't complain about how much he cheats stock holders.
rlouzan
Well-known
Can't say I'm surprised ... we are getting screwed every day in Spain 
.
Another "paisano" of Mr. Perez:…
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/b...tures-upends-spains-cajas.html?pagewanted=all
.Another "paisano" of Mr. Perez:…
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/b...tures-upends-spains-cajas.html?pagewanted=all
Sparrow
Mentor
I think they sell to the sprit and behave to the letter, I'm quite sure under oath when it comes down to it they would not have had sexual relations with anyone, strictly speaking that's not fraud i suppose ... but do you not think we deserve better from such people? ... are they not supposed to be held to personal morel standards as high as their remuneration?
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
That's a mighty broad brush you're painting with there. Or is it just that you're pining for the days of the Eisenhower administration, when the top marginal tax rate was over 80%?
paulfish4570
Mentor
by government entitlements i mean food stamps, section, welfare and such used by people who CHOOSE not to work, and have done so for generations.
i am looking forward to drawing social security next year. i certainly invested enough into it.
randy, most of our school children grow up expecting to get something for nothing; they are not taught any better by their parents. they are bombarded 24/7 by advertising telling them they deserve this and that. no one at home has the sense to tell them they do not, in fact, deserve anything; adults are caught up in this sham as well. and it is no different in the board room, or in the union hall, or in ditches and factories.
that is what i mean by a sense of entitlement. perhaps a better phrase is a sense of deserve-ment. it is endemic.
i suppose we could blame "madison avenue," but that seems silly given that none of us has to turn on the tv or radio or read a magazine or web site.
i am looking forward to drawing social security next year. i certainly invested enough into it.
randy, most of our school children grow up expecting to get something for nothing; they are not taught any better by their parents. they are bombarded 24/7 by advertising telling them they deserve this and that. no one at home has the sense to tell them they do not, in fact, deserve anything; adults are caught up in this sham as well. and it is no different in the board room, or in the union hall, or in ditches and factories.
that is what i mean by a sense of entitlement. perhaps a better phrase is a sense of deserve-ment. it is endemic.
i suppose we could blame "madison avenue," but that seems silly given that none of us has to turn on the tv or radio or read a magazine or web site.
Roger Hicks
Mentor
Well, maybe we ARE 'entitled'. We live in societies richer than has been imaginable for the vast majority of human history. Some people think they're 'entitled' because they went to an Ivy League university and were rewarded with a well-paying job that could have been done by anyone of average intelligence. Others think they're 'entitled' because television portrays hopelessly unrealistic lifestyles for the poor. Both groups are too stupid to understand anything different from what they're fed by their media of choice.
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
semilog
curmudgeonly optimist
Yeah, it's always a good idea to punish children for the imagined deficiencies of their parents.
And it's always a good idea to tell folks how easy the game is when you've spent your life playing on the lowest difficulty setting.
paulfish4570
Mentor
children are punished? how? by whom? it is their parents who are punishing them. "imagined deficiencies" of their parents? ask a school counselor if she/he imagines these "deficiencies." ask a social worker if these parents with imagined deficiencies don't know how to game the system - and teach their children the ropes.
that's enough from me. blame the rich. blame the poor. blame someone in-between. shoot, blame me ...
that's enough from me. blame the rich. blame the poor. blame someone in-between. shoot, blame me ...
Roger Hicks
Mentor
Thanks for the link. And you know who whinges most? The straight white males who STILL fail, and blame it on everything except themselves. Or, of course, the society they have created.
Because, make no mistake, failure can involve voting for the wrong people. To quote Marx, "Every class acts in its own class interest." To put a gloss on Marx, "Except the very stupid."
Cheers,
R.
Michael Markey
Mentor
Correct of course.
I worked forty years for HM Gov and during that period outsourced millions of pounds of business to the private sector.
I`ve also worked closely with US companies like Arthur Anderson.
Governments and the private sector often see things very differently but both soon realise that neither have a monopoly on common sense.
If this chap signed a contact with Kodak which enables him to walk away with a lucrative pay off which had little regard to his performance then that suggests that Kodak were already dysfunctional.
Regardless of that I feel that its a matter for the parties involved rather than "society".
However, like Bob , I don`t know the facts so I am unwilling to offer an informed comment.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
"Defraud" means to deceive or mislead. I contend that Kodak and its management made bad decisions but not "defraud" anyone.
Important is that we must not punish businesses and management for making bad decisions. Doing so stops them from trying to make any decisions. Then the entire economic system stops and we all lose.
Allowing businesses to win / lose or succeed / fail is absolutely critical to our economic model.
Originally Posted by Bob Michaels
Do you think that Kodak and its management "defrauded" others?
Important is that we must not punish businesses and management for making bad decisions. Doing so stops them from trying to make any decisions. Then the entire economic system stops and we all lose.
Allowing businesses to win / lose or succeed / fail is absolutely critical to our economic model.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Michaels
Do you think that Kodak and its management "defrauded" others?
Sejanus.Aelianus
Mentor
If you take out the words "a monopoly on" you will get somewhat closer to the reality as I perceive it.
Theory tells us that, for capitalism to work, failure must be punished in the only appropriate manner: the people at the top lose the lot. Theory also tells us that, for socialism to work, failure must be punished in the only appropriate manner: people at the top are disgraced and humbled. It appears self evident that none of this occurs.
This suggests that the theory is well wrong, so perhaps it's time for the rest of us to behave in the same way as our leaders: grab all we can; blame others for our faults and let the devil take the hindmost.
That will be fun, won't it?
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Yup, that's why I wrote that Perez will likely move on to the next lucrative job, will not be suffering any consequences from his bad business judgments and will not have any incentive to improve his functioning. Not one of his peers will dismiss him from their circles for fear of being considered a backstabber or a disloyal.
There's an old-boys-and-girls network out there that is like the 'hidden in plain sight' spaceship from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. It's hidden by rules an legislation and there's lots of people benefiting from it. People who think 'having the crumbs from the table is better than having nothing at all' and they keep the folks at the table shielded in plain sight, and feasting.