LeicaTom
Watch that step!
I would say around 1949/50 while Everything`s in DM that`s POST 1948 Germany and there`s no mention of serial #360000 and ABOVE cameras being modified to Leica IIIFBD so it`s got to be era 1949 early 1950 (still in the time of the IIIC "Flattop" production)
Tom
*EDIT CORRECTION* It`s from the 1950/51/52 era - in the first series of factory produced cameras with sync flash around the time they made the Leica IIIFBD (Black Dial)
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Erik van Straten
Mentor
Hello Tom,
Maybe you have a difficulty in reading German, but there is mention in the document of modification into model f, but not of modification into f red dial. So I would think it's from about 1950-1952. Also the price level suggests this period.
Erik.
Maybe you have a difficulty in reading German, but there is mention in the document of modification into model f, but not of modification into f red dial. So I would think it's from about 1950-1952. Also the price level suggests this period.
Erik.
John Shriver
Well-known
As for black to chrome conversion, in the 1930's, when both finishes were made, black was the economy finish, chrome was more expensive. Chrome plating is nasty process. Doing it successfully on old parts would be tricky at best.
Erik van Straten
Mentor
John,
I know that in the 1930's chrome was more expensive, but it was also more popular. Black paint finish relied on the skill of the individual workers and the baking procedure was time consuming, so, black paint finish was a nasty process too. And the lettering on the early black Leicas remains a mystery to me. How that was done! Melted lead was poured into engraved lines! Have you ever tried to do that?
Erik.
I know that in the 1930's chrome was more expensive, but it was also more popular. Black paint finish relied on the skill of the individual workers and the baking procedure was time consuming, so, black paint finish was a nasty process too. And the lettering on the early black Leicas remains a mystery to me. How that was done! Melted lead was poured into engraved lines! Have you ever tried to do that?
Erik.
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
Erik,
ohh NOTICE I said IIIFBD ok? Nothing about a red dial.......my German is quite well thank you!
Now let`s see a document that`s got the "wartime" era conversions on it with Leica IIIC cameras from #360000 to #397600........
Tom
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raid
Dad Photographer
I have a black Standard in which the viewfinder was replaced with a second accessory bracket. Now, I could use a RF in one bracket and a viewfinder in the second one.
Erik van Straten
Mentor
Erik,
ohh NOTICE I said IIIFBD ok? Nothing about a red dial.......my German is quite well thank you!
Tom
I'm sorry, it must have been my poor english. I don't have any documents on converting IIIc wartime camera's, but did you know that Leni Riefenstahl used a grey IIIc that was converted?
Erik.
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LeicaTom
Watch that step!
Ahh yes, it was a early 1945 Issued camera that she bought at Leitz NYC like in 1950 and then took it back to Germany for the conversion, one of the rarest conversions of all time, she used it up till like 1962 and then Theo Kisselbach of LEICA BUCH fame bought it and it found it`s way 40+ years later to the auction block
IIIC K Grey to IIIFBD - this camera sold at auction for over $15k a few years ago, a very interesting camera (I`ve only seen three of these my entire life including this one)
Tom
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Dralowid
Michael
Lettering on pre-war black Leicas.
The lettering was engraved and the filled in with a material called 'Woods Metal' that was flowed into the engraving, hot. When new I think this would have had a dull sheen, a bit like bright pewter.
If you are very, very brave, you could reheat the lettering and theoretically the sheen will return. Obviously doing this will risk the paint and is really not advised unless you are skilled and have plenty of Leicas to practise on!.
Michael
The lettering was engraved and the filled in with a material called 'Woods Metal' that was flowed into the engraving, hot. When new I think this would have had a dull sheen, a bit like bright pewter.
If you are very, very brave, you could reheat the lettering and theoretically the sheen will return. Obviously doing this will risk the paint and is really not advised unless you are skilled and have plenty of Leicas to practise on!.
Michael
Dralowid
Michael
Another one. This time it is a II converted in the 50's to a II sync with different top casing to accomodate the modified shutter. This casing makes the accesory shoe slightly proud of the top odf the camera.
It is a bit of a dog and is yet to be dealt with. Lens flange is not correctly orientated and the shutter sounds like a bag of nails. Lens s/n is from '55 but I'd never trust a lens to give a camera's date. At least there is no touching up or repainting and it is complete. Film loading instructions on the bottom of the shutter casing and not on baseplate.
For Erik's benefit I also attach an image of the shutter release collar, including the 'knick' designed to show when things are revolving. In this case not coloured.
More in due course,
Michael
It is a bit of a dog and is yet to be dealt with. Lens flange is not correctly orientated and the shutter sounds like a bag of nails. Lens s/n is from '55 but I'd never trust a lens to give a camera's date. At least there is no touching up or repainting and it is complete. Film loading instructions on the bottom of the shutter casing and not on baseplate.
For Erik's benefit I also attach an image of the shutter release collar, including the 'knick' designed to show when things are revolving. In this case not coloured.
More in due course,
Michael
Dralowid
Michael
Woods Metal/ from an older thread
Woods Metal/ from an older thread
landsknechte
Beige Against the Machine
landsknechte
Dug this up:
Wood's Metal is a fusible alloy that becomes liquid at approximately 158 °F. The alloy is comprised of bismuth, lead, tin, and cadmium.
__________________
www.chromatic-aberration.com
-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-
1936 Zeiss Contax II
1939 Leica III to IIIa conversion
1940 Фэд-НКВД
1946 Leica IIIc to IIIf conversion
1957 Зоркий-C
landsknechte
Woods Metal/ from an older thread
landsknechte
Beige Against the Machine
landsknechte
Dug this up:
Wood's Metal is a fusible alloy that becomes liquid at approximately 158 °F. The alloy is comprised of bismuth, lead, tin, and cadmium.
__________________
www.chromatic-aberration.com
-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-
1936 Zeiss Contax II
1939 Leica III to IIIa conversion
1940 Фэд-НКВД
1946 Leica IIIc to IIIf conversion
1957 Зоркий-C
landsknechte
If you want to try "Woods Metal" you might look here, http://www.hitechalloys.com/hitechalloys_002.htm, at CERROSAFE or CERROBEND. I'd be interested in knowing how it worked out.
Eli
Erik van Straten
Mentor
Michael,
Now they show perfectly.
The shutter guard ring is a bit thick. Could be from a FED. But never mind.
The IIasyn is converted from a II from the first series. You should have it repaired. I know a great repairman in Holland who does wonderful things to these fine camera's. However, CRR in Luton would also be good choice.
The odd thing on these cameras is the slightly lifted accessoiry-shoe. This lift was necessairy to make room for the sychronisation mechanism. It makes the cameras a bit ugly and therefore, for me, attractive. Do you understand what I mean?
Erik
Now they show perfectly.
The shutter guard ring is a bit thick. Could be from a FED. But never mind.
The IIasyn is converted from a II from the first series. You should have it repaired. I know a great repairman in Holland who does wonderful things to these fine camera's. However, CRR in Luton would also be good choice.
The odd thing on these cameras is the slightly lifted accessoiry-shoe. This lift was necessairy to make room for the sychronisation mechanism. It makes the cameras a bit ugly and therefore, for me, attractive. Do you understand what I mean?
Erik
Erik van Straten
Mentor
Michael,
Thank you for the information on Woods Metal. I think I will do some research om the web myself now I have the Woods Metal name.
I still do not understand how this metal was applied.
Erik.
Thank you for the information on Woods Metal. I think I will do some research om the web myself now I have the Woods Metal name.
I still do not understand how this metal was applied.
Erik.
Dralowid
Michael
Erik,
I understand what you mean both interms of aesthetics and the practical difference in the top moulding, I think it is unique to these cameras.
Also the II rangefinder has been upgraded to III spec.
The camera has already gone to Peter at CRR who has worked on cameras for me before. His work is faultless, the results excellent.
Michael
I understand what you mean both interms of aesthetics and the practical difference in the top moulding, I think it is unique to these cameras.
Also the II rangefinder has been upgraded to III spec.
The camera has already gone to Peter at CRR who has worked on cameras for me before. His work is faultless, the results excellent.
Michael
Erik van Straten
Mentor
Michael,
Yes, Peter at CRR did also work on my cameras as well. He made a fungus-infected IIIg finder work like new, after Leica in Solms returned it to me saying repair was impossible, because they had no parts for replacements.
Erik.
Yes, Peter at CRR did also work on my cameras as well. He made a fungus-infected IIIg finder work like new, after Leica in Solms returned it to me saying repair was impossible, because they had no parts for replacements.
Erik.
Dralowid
Michael
Woods metal
A little conjecture based on a very little experience of hand-made jewellery and a etching processes.
The piece to be engraved and filled would be painted first. I don’t know if the original black is ‘simple’ enamel or stove enamel.
If it were to be engraved chemically it would be covered with a ’stopper’ coat first. This prevents the acid from damaging the paint. (However, I do not think chemical etching was used on brass, it is more suitable for ferrous metals (?).)
If it were to be engraved mechanically it would probably have some protective coating of some sort.
The etched piece then has the filler run into the etching and the excess removed. As mentioned elsewhere this is done at around 150f. One has to assume that the original paint process used can cope with this temperature. If not, there must be another protective coating in use. Stove enamelling would survive this temperature but the high temperatures used in the paint baking process could distort the piece (?).
When the metal has cooled the piece can be buffed to clean any protective coating off and put a shine on lettering and background.
As I may have mentioned before, Peter at CRR has re-heated lettering on a camera of mine and brought the lettering back to life but I must emphasise that he considers it a bit of risky business and we only went ahead because the camera’s cosmetic condition was not of prime importance.
I imagine there is someone out there who has more experience than I and can tell me I am talking a load of rubbish!
Michael
A little conjecture based on a very little experience of hand-made jewellery and a etching processes.
The piece to be engraved and filled would be painted first. I don’t know if the original black is ‘simple’ enamel or stove enamel.
If it were to be engraved chemically it would be covered with a ’stopper’ coat first. This prevents the acid from damaging the paint. (However, I do not think chemical etching was used on brass, it is more suitable for ferrous metals (?).)
If it were to be engraved mechanically it would probably have some protective coating of some sort.
The etched piece then has the filler run into the etching and the excess removed. As mentioned elsewhere this is done at around 150f. One has to assume that the original paint process used can cope with this temperature. If not, there must be another protective coating in use. Stove enamelling would survive this temperature but the high temperatures used in the paint baking process could distort the piece (?).
When the metal has cooled the piece can be buffed to clean any protective coating off and put a shine on lettering and background.
As I may have mentioned before, Peter at CRR has re-heated lettering on a camera of mine and brought the lettering back to life but I must emphasise that he considers it a bit of risky business and we only went ahead because the camera’s cosmetic condition was not of prime importance.
I imagine there is someone out there who has more experience than I and can tell me I am talking a load of rubbish!
Michael
Erik van Straten
Mentor
Michael,
Thank you for this very intersting information. There must have been some acid-etching stuff in the game indeed, while often the paint around the lettering is eaten away, making the number on Leica I's often hard to read.
The enamel on Leica I's is in my opnion a single coat of baked enamel, but on Leica II's and III's it was a double or a triple coat. That's the reason why the finish of Leica II's an III's is normally in a much better condition than the finish of the Leica I's.
It is however hard to believe that the markings where etched in stead of being engraved.
Maybe there is someone reading this stuff who really knows how things went, but the people that actually used this technique in actually producing the objects we are talking about may no longer be with us.
Erik.
Thank you for this very intersting information. There must have been some acid-etching stuff in the game indeed, while often the paint around the lettering is eaten away, making the number on Leica I's often hard to read.
The enamel on Leica I's is in my opnion a single coat of baked enamel, but on Leica II's and III's it was a double or a triple coat. That's the reason why the finish of Leica II's an III's is normally in a much better condition than the finish of the Leica I's.
It is however hard to believe that the markings where etched in stead of being engraved.
Maybe there is someone reading this stuff who really knows how things went, but the people that actually used this technique in actually producing the objects we are talking about may no longer be with us.
Erik.
Dralowid
Michael
Erik,
Woods Metal
This may be a case of the blind leading the blind. I have to talk to Peter next week, I'll take the opportunity to ask him if he knows more.
Shutter release collars
Time for a beauty parade. When I have the time I'll try and post some photos of different versions. Not including the later IIIc type pattern. Perhaps you could do the same?
Michael
Woods Metal
This may be a case of the blind leading the blind. I have to talk to Peter next week, I'll take the opportunity to ask him if he knows more.
Shutter release collars
Time for a beauty parade. When I have the time I'll try and post some photos of different versions. Not including the later IIIc type pattern. Perhaps you could do the same?
Michael
Dralowid
Michael
And another:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61009&stc=1&d=1214144835
22XXX. This is a I converted to IIIa pre-war. Seen service with the press in Northern Ireland. It was passed on to me in the '70s and attended to last year by CRR. Flash sync removed, re-covered with their less expensive vulcanite alternative and rebuilt. Lettering on top reheated to improve legibility. Particularly unusual in that the shutter speed dial appears to be nickel (can only really be seen inside and on close up).
Despite the wear one of the best Summars I have and the camera operates faultlessly.
You may question spending money on a camera in this condition but it's history, mostly documented, justifies the decision.
Michael
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61009&stc=1&d=1214144835
22XXX. This is a I converted to IIIa pre-war. Seen service with the press in Northern Ireland. It was passed on to me in the '70s and attended to last year by CRR. Flash sync removed, re-covered with their less expensive vulcanite alternative and rebuilt. Lettering on top reheated to improve legibility. Particularly unusual in that the shutter speed dial appears to be nickel (can only really be seen inside and on close up).
Despite the wear one of the best Summars I have and the camera operates faultlessly.
You may question spending money on a camera in this condition but it's history, mostly documented, justifies the decision.
Michael
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John Shriver
Well-known
Dralowid, that must have been a very good Summar to get the barrel worn down to the brass. My feeling is when you find a lens with great glass, but lots of mechanical wear, it must have been a really good specimen, and got heavily used.
The camera dials all look very much nickel in comparison to the chrome of the lens.
The camera dials all look very much nickel in comparison to the chrome of the lens.