M8 Oh Drat

M8 Oh S*****

M8 Oh S*****

Godfrey said:
It isn't. MTBF is an estimated value based on a representative sample of shutters which have been tested to the failure point. Any individual shutter can have a problem at any time.

That's the nature of a statistical estimate.
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So, MTBF may not be the correct term.

What I do know if that the typical user who spends $6k on a body expects an extremely durable shutter. Hopefully, an M8 shutter that fails after 30k actuations is an 'anomaly' and not the 'norm', and that the Leica shutters should last at least as long as a $1500.00 Japanese camera's shutter.

Brad
 
This shutter problem is obviously an anomaly. Leica sold thousands of M8 cameras, one or even a dozen with a shutter problem of some kind early in the life of the body does not constitute a 'norm'.

When it happens to your camera, it's a PITA. When it happens to most of the cameras in a production run, it's a norm. "Most of the cameras in a production run" would mean, technically, at least 51% ... In the case of the M8, that number would be in the thousands.

G
 
I don't own an m8 but have heard of lots of them having their shutter replaced. It's clearly not a norm if you define that by greater than 50% but its a bit more than an anomaly, I think.
 
FrankS said:
I don't own an m8 but have heard of lots of them having their shutter replaced.
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There were many shutters replaced in the upgrade program. Other than that I have never seen one with a replaced shutter. I have seen a few forum posts about shutter failures.
 
FrankS said:
I don't own an m8 but have heard of lots of them having their shutter replaced. It's clearly not a norm if you define that by greater than 50% but its a bit more than an anomaly, I think.
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Where did you hear that then?
 
Lss said:
There were many shutters replaced in the upgrade program. Other than that I have never seen one with a replaced shutter. I have seen a few forum posts about shutter failures.
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Exactly.

By the serial number listings, there were about 20,000 M8s sold, give or take a few. If greater than 3% experienced an early shutter failure, that would be out of bounds on *all* expected warranty repairs (that's a number of cameras, about 600), the industry mean. If as many as 10%, or 2000 cameras, required a new shutter early in its life, I'd consider that a condition of "highly likely to need an early shutter repair". For an early shutter replacement to be expected as "normal", failure numbers would have to be in the range of 4000 or more cameras that actually failed—and there's no evidence to support that kind of number at all.

Of course with an expensive camera, or anything else, your expectations are that it is perfect and will last forever. However, this expectation is simply not aligned with practical realities of the world at all. Machines break, all of them; most of them at or near the statistical average if given the kind of treatment and care that they were designed for. Some fail much earlier than that, some much later. It's simply a fact of life. Sucky when it happens to your prized, expensive camera, but you groan a little and get on with it.

Let's not make a tempest in a teapot over this single M8 shutter problem.

G
 
FrankS said:
I don't own an m8 but have heard of lots of them having their shutter replaced. It's clearly not a norm if you define that by greater than 50% but its a bit more than an anomaly, I think.
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Remember: Leica M8 failures create more web traffic than Leica M8 success stories (usually derided as "shill" posts). I wouldn't base norm metrics on intertoobes polling.
 
Do as I do with my M8: Just use it as a light meter and "electrionic polaroid" max 10 shots per day. Then continue with Film leicas. One film has a longevity of 36 actuations, then it is replaced...
 
I dropped mine. Cost me (Insurance company) £600 to get it fixed. (got it back a couple of weeks ago)
Apart from a couple of gouges in the top plate, looks very nice. Years warranty etc.
On my 2 trips to Leica Mayfair I drank all the Coffee I could drink & all the Croissants & Pain Chocolate I could get down me. (Trying to get my moneys worth.) They wont post M9 cameras! So I had to pick up & drop off.
Plus they lent me the M9 for nearly 3 months while I was away.
Tried to get an upgrade to ME or M9, but Leica would not have it.
I was glad to be rid of the M9. I suspect it was a duff example.
M8 produced much better pics.
Get it fixed is my advice.
 
ray*j*gun said:
When an M8 is upgraded to an M8u does anyone know if the actuation count with-in the camera is reset to zero or if the count continues?

Thanks.
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The count continues. One of my M8s went in for sensor service in 2009 and I took the opportunity to have the shutter and frameline upgrades put in. Shutter count when sent in was 8346, and the first shot upon return was 8428, clearly not reset when shutter replaced; 81 actuations while in for service.
 
Sparrow said:
... I'd be interested in Raid's interpretation of the sample size and presentation of those statistics
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Of course, a small (biased) sample like the one used for the chart (link) is just a biased snapshot of what is happening. My specialty is quality control (surprise!), and I would not pay much attention to such information, except to learn that such problems could occur.
 
Gabriel M.A. said:
Remember: Leica M8 failures create more web traffic than Leica M8 success stories (usually derided as "shill" posts). I wouldn't base norm metrics on intertoobes polling.
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This is correct. It is similar to a non-response in a marketing survey. People who care about the issue will more likely post about it. Someone who has no problems with her/his M8 may not want to post about it.
 
Doug said:
The count continues. One of my M8s went in for sensor service in 2009 and I took the opportunity to have the shutter and frameline upgrades put in. Shutter count when sent in was 8346, and the first shot upon return was 8428, clearly not reset when shutter replaced; 81 actuations while in for service.
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Thanks!! I appreciate the respone.
 
Frank's right. I too have read of M8 shutter problems as well as sensor problems. Not saying that the M8 is a bad camera, just electronically it's not up to par with the build of a top end Canon or Nikon.
 
gb hill said:
Frank's right. I too have read of M8 shutter problems as well as sensor problems. Not saying that the M8 is a bad camera, just electronically it's not up to par with the build of a top end Canon or Nikon.
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I know several folks who had no end of trouble with nearly new Nikon D2x and D3 cameras, never mind Canon 1D III and IV. As usual, after a bit of trouble and annoyance, their cameras delivered excellent service and at least two of the are still in daily use. Same as I would expect of the M8.

G
 
Are you in the UK?
14,000 actuations for a "Premium" Camera, no matter how old, is unacceptable.
Statutory rights etc.
Look here

in a nutshell
Sale of Goods Act 1979

Satisfactory quality, As Described, Fit for purpose, And last a Reasonable length of Time.

Depends on the "reasonable length of time."
A premium Camera should last a lifetime surely?
 
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