2WK
Rangefinder User
So the MM is my frst digital M, coming from an M6. I ordered it with a 50 Summilux ASPH and was very excited about this combo. I'l try to be brief.
My first day shooting, I took some portraits that I was very excited about. I shot a man from mid thigh, up and I stopped down to 2.8 to make sure I nailed focus. It looked amazing on the tiny LCD! I was very excited, until I uploaded, zoomed in and his face was soft. Actually he was all soft. His shirt, everything. Well I was bummed, but thought it must have been my nerves etc, somehow I blew it. Most of my other shots, stopped down to f5.6 or f8 looked great and I dismissed the issue, because some other closeup shots at 1.4 looked sharp enough.
A few days later I had a lookbook shoot. I used the MM for the whole thing. Cute 20 year old Italian model, her first week in the US. I took about about 400 shots. Most were probably at around 2.8. Again, all looked fantastic on the LCD...and then most looked soft on my monitor. Sometimes the focus looked like it was about 6" in front of the model. Like, the door frame would be tack sharp, and her face behind was soft. But then again, some closeups at 1.4 was nice and sharp. So, while it could have been a complete disaster, I managed to sharpen some, and salvaged the shoot....but barely. It was a high paying gig and the clients were happy, but I was not. When I focus on eyes, I want to see sharp eyes. That night I set up a a tape measure and camera on tripod. I found stange things. At 1.4 it was pretty close, maybe 1/2" off. At 2.8 it was front focusing by 6"....
On top of it all, my sensor had become completely covered with spots. And I hadn't even changed lenses once. Some say its oil from the shutter etc. Anyway, Leica told me to send it to NJ. They said they would look at the rangefinder, and clean the sensor...but that this is normal with digital cameras, its just dust. Normal? I have changed lens with my xpro in a sand storm, in a wood shop with sawdust everywhere. The fuji is clean! I know it has auto cleaning, and apparently it works great. The Monochrom sensor looked like I had been using it for 5 years, not one week.
Because I am using my camera everyday for work, they said they would send me a replacement, but then they said sorry, no loaner MM's. I said fine, send me any digital M to use. Well, they never did.
The service tech called me. I mentioned that I have been reading about the oil on the sensor problem from many reported MM users. He said that is just a "rumor". He said that since the camera is not weather sealed, micro dust can get in around the lens.
Then we talked about my focus problem. I told him about the f2.8 front focusing by 6". I had even sent them the photos. Then he asked if I shot a lot at that aperture. He then said, "Why did you buy a Summilux if you aren't going to be shooting it wide open, this is what the lens was designed for and it is how they base their focus adjustments on. A rangefinder is not the perfect focusing mechanism, since it is only guessing what the lens sees, so it is difficult to adjust the lens to be precise for difference distances." I seriously can't believe he said that, and my stomach started to turn. I spent $12,000 on this combo and I can't have novelties like THINGS IN FOCUS?
He said he would tweak it best he could.
I got it back. Sensor had 2 small dust sots on it, but I managed to blow it clean. Ok. Now the focusing. At minimum distance at 1.4 it is back focusing by about an inch. At 6 feet out, it is close focusing by about 3-4".
Am I crazy for wanting "THE BEST 50mm LENS EVER CREATED" to be on point, at different distances? Is this something you Summilux ASPH owners deal with? I feel like a Summilux ASS.
At this point I want them to give me a brand new camera and lens.
I dunno... any advice? Thanks for reading all that rambling, but I had to vent, and it would fall on deaf ears with my girlfriend.
My first day shooting, I took some portraits that I was very excited about. I shot a man from mid thigh, up and I stopped down to 2.8 to make sure I nailed focus. It looked amazing on the tiny LCD! I was very excited, until I uploaded, zoomed in and his face was soft. Actually he was all soft. His shirt, everything. Well I was bummed, but thought it must have been my nerves etc, somehow I blew it. Most of my other shots, stopped down to f5.6 or f8 looked great and I dismissed the issue, because some other closeup shots at 1.4 looked sharp enough.
A few days later I had a lookbook shoot. I used the MM for the whole thing. Cute 20 year old Italian model, her first week in the US. I took about about 400 shots. Most were probably at around 2.8. Again, all looked fantastic on the LCD...and then most looked soft on my monitor. Sometimes the focus looked like it was about 6" in front of the model. Like, the door frame would be tack sharp, and her face behind was soft. But then again, some closeups at 1.4 was nice and sharp. So, while it could have been a complete disaster, I managed to sharpen some, and salvaged the shoot....but barely. It was a high paying gig and the clients were happy, but I was not. When I focus on eyes, I want to see sharp eyes. That night I set up a a tape measure and camera on tripod. I found stange things. At 1.4 it was pretty close, maybe 1/2" off. At 2.8 it was front focusing by 6"....
On top of it all, my sensor had become completely covered with spots. And I hadn't even changed lenses once. Some say its oil from the shutter etc. Anyway, Leica told me to send it to NJ. They said they would look at the rangefinder, and clean the sensor...but that this is normal with digital cameras, its just dust. Normal? I have changed lens with my xpro in a sand storm, in a wood shop with sawdust everywhere. The fuji is clean! I know it has auto cleaning, and apparently it works great. The Monochrom sensor looked like I had been using it for 5 years, not one week.
Because I am using my camera everyday for work, they said they would send me a replacement, but then they said sorry, no loaner MM's. I said fine, send me any digital M to use. Well, they never did.
The service tech called me. I mentioned that I have been reading about the oil on the sensor problem from many reported MM users. He said that is just a "rumor". He said that since the camera is not weather sealed, micro dust can get in around the lens.
Then we talked about my focus problem. I told him about the f2.8 front focusing by 6". I had even sent them the photos. Then he asked if I shot a lot at that aperture. He then said, "Why did you buy a Summilux if you aren't going to be shooting it wide open, this is what the lens was designed for and it is how they base their focus adjustments on. A rangefinder is not the perfect focusing mechanism, since it is only guessing what the lens sees, so it is difficult to adjust the lens to be precise for difference distances." I seriously can't believe he said that, and my stomach started to turn. I spent $12,000 on this combo and I can't have novelties like THINGS IN FOCUS?
He said he would tweak it best he could.
I got it back. Sensor had 2 small dust sots on it, but I managed to blow it clean. Ok. Now the focusing. At minimum distance at 1.4 it is back focusing by about an inch. At 6 feet out, it is close focusing by about 3-4".
Am I crazy for wanting "THE BEST 50mm LENS EVER CREATED" to be on point, at different distances?
Is this something you Summilux ASPH owners deal with? I feel like a Summilux ASS.At this point I want them to give me a brand new camera and lens.
I dunno... any advice? Thanks for reading all that rambling, but I had to vent, and it would fall on deaf ears with my girlfriend.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I don't know about oil on the sensor, so can't comment; but the focus issue sounds like a problem known as "focus shift." I first heard of it in the context of the Zeiss 50/1.5 Sonnar. It seems that some lenses shift their point of focus as they are stopped down. The Zeiss lens has to be optimized by a technician for either f/1.5, or f/2; owner's choice. I am very surprised that an ultra- expensive Leica aspherical would do this, though! I wonder if you got a bad sample that should be exchanged for another lens.
FA Limited
missing in action
don't have much to help but wish you good luck with your camera and lens
thanks for sharing your experience
thanks for sharing your experience
f16sunshine
Moderator
I think you should ask for what you want...... A brand new camera and lens.
The 50mm Summilux Asph has a floating element to aid in eliminating focus shift.
It should not be this bad. I have dealt with Leica NJ on two occasions and thought they were super.... very accommodating.
Is there any notes on the repairs performed? Do you know if they found fault with body or lens? Get the regional sales rep involved through the store you purchased with. That usually does the trick with any company when it comes to unhappy customers.
The 50mm Summilux Asph has a floating element to aid in eliminating focus shift.
It should not be this bad. I have dealt with Leica NJ on two occasions and thought they were super.... very accommodating.
Is there any notes on the repairs performed? Do you know if they found fault with body or lens? Get the regional sales rep involved through the store you purchased with. That usually does the trick with any company when it comes to unhappy customers.
Dunn
Well-known
I would be upset too. A camera and lens that costs that much should operate properly.
rscheffler
Well-known
Can you meet any other Leica users in your area to try their lenses on your camera, and your lens on their camera? Just to be sure it's a problem with the lens. I think it probably is, but best to narrow down the problem as much as possible.
FWIW, I bought a 50 Lux ASPH used through one of the forums, back a couple years ago, and when I received it, it was kind of wobbly and had a lot of glow wide open. It took two trips to Leica (did it while I was coincidentally in Germany both times) to get it working well. The first time they fixed the glow problem, but it was front focusing at farther distances. The second time around it was pretty much bang on. Since then it has drifted to slight front focus at mid and far distances, which I compensate for on the fly. But I haven't experienced the problem you have. I have read of other Lux ASPH owners sending a lens in several times before it came back 'perfect.'
Someone suggested focus shift, but if focus is good wide open, focus shift is always towards back focus as the lens is stopped down, whereas you're seeing front focus.
The only thing I can think of at the moment is that perhaps the floating element's cam is slightly off. Or the rangefinder cam on the lens isn't correctly machined for precise focus. I've heard that one way to adjust these lenses for better rangefinder optimization is to carefully shave the lens's rangefinder cam. But I'm not 100% sure if doing this is for front or back focus - I think for front focus. I'm curious if you look at your lens's cam, does it look like it might have been shaved? It looks like mine has for the area that corresponds to focus between 5m and infinity, which is where I was having the front focus problem after the first time it was serviced.
The Lux ASPH is an excellent lens, but it's not a perfect lens. At nearer distances it does lose a bit of sharpness. I find it to be a difficult lens for focus and recompose, such as focusing on the eyes and then placing the subject's face in a rule of thirds composition, for example. Others I've talked to have confirmed this as well. Then there is a trait of many of Leica's lenses, which is a fairly wavy plane of focus. You can see this in their MTF graphs quite clearly, including the 50 Lux ASPH's. A related problem is that at moderate apertures, such as 2-3 stops from wide open, the higher lp/mm sagittal and tangential plot lines diverge considerably, which translates into somewhat skewed looking sharpness compared to the center of the frame. But you'll note that the f/1.4 plot lines have very minimal divergence. Meaning, the Leica tech was somewhat correct in stating that many Leica lenses are optimized for wide open performance. Two years into my Leica adventure and a number of Leica lenses later, I believe this is true, more so with their faster Lux offerings. My understanding is the new 50/2 APO ASPH is quite good for focus and recompose. Unfortunately it's considerably more expensive than the Lux ASPH...
FWIW, I bought a 50 Lux ASPH used through one of the forums, back a couple years ago, and when I received it, it was kind of wobbly and had a lot of glow wide open. It took two trips to Leica (did it while I was coincidentally in Germany both times) to get it working well. The first time they fixed the glow problem, but it was front focusing at farther distances. The second time around it was pretty much bang on. Since then it has drifted to slight front focus at mid and far distances, which I compensate for on the fly. But I haven't experienced the problem you have. I have read of other Lux ASPH owners sending a lens in several times before it came back 'perfect.'
Someone suggested focus shift, but if focus is good wide open, focus shift is always towards back focus as the lens is stopped down, whereas you're seeing front focus.
The only thing I can think of at the moment is that perhaps the floating element's cam is slightly off. Or the rangefinder cam on the lens isn't correctly machined for precise focus. I've heard that one way to adjust these lenses for better rangefinder optimization is to carefully shave the lens's rangefinder cam. But I'm not 100% sure if doing this is for front or back focus - I think for front focus. I'm curious if you look at your lens's cam, does it look like it might have been shaved? It looks like mine has for the area that corresponds to focus between 5m and infinity, which is where I was having the front focus problem after the first time it was serviced.
The Lux ASPH is an excellent lens, but it's not a perfect lens. At nearer distances it does lose a bit of sharpness. I find it to be a difficult lens for focus and recompose, such as focusing on the eyes and then placing the subject's face in a rule of thirds composition, for example. Others I've talked to have confirmed this as well. Then there is a trait of many of Leica's lenses, which is a fairly wavy plane of focus. You can see this in their MTF graphs quite clearly, including the 50 Lux ASPH's. A related problem is that at moderate apertures, such as 2-3 stops from wide open, the higher lp/mm sagittal and tangential plot lines diverge considerably, which translates into somewhat skewed looking sharpness compared to the center of the frame. But you'll note that the f/1.4 plot lines have very minimal divergence. Meaning, the Leica tech was somewhat correct in stating that many Leica lenses are optimized for wide open performance. Two years into my Leica adventure and a number of Leica lenses later, I believe this is true, more so with their faster Lux offerings. My understanding is the new 50/2 APO ASPH is quite good for focus and recompose. Unfortunately it's considerably more expensive than the Lux ASPH...
Vobluda
Well-known
How very true:
"A rangefinder is not the perfect focusing mechanism, since it is only guessing what the lens sees, so it is difficult to adjust the lens to be precise for difference distances."
"A rangefinder is not the perfect focusing mechanism, since it is only guessing what the lens sees, so it is difficult to adjust the lens to be precise for difference distances."
mfogiel
Mentor
This is obviously a disappointment, however, far from being a professional, I normally do 2 things, when I want to shoot a model:
1) I test shoot all my camera/lens combos beforehand wide open to check focus precision
2) I use different lenses or even camera/lens combos for every max aperture, i.e. if I want to shoot at f1.4, I use an 1.4 lens, that I checked focuses right wide open, if I want to shoot at f 2.8, I use a 2.8 lens, that I have checked wide open as well, etc.
This way, I avoid focus shift and I get the best bokeh possible for every aperture.
For model shooting, I would suggest to get 2 C Sonnars: one optimized for wide open, and one for f 2.8, the two lenses will cost you a half of the Summilux ASPH, and will do a better job - actually, you could also add a second hand Elmar M 50/2.8 and/or Planar 50/2, which hve no focus shift and are wonderful all round lenses with very nice bokeh - with all that you will have 4 lenses for the price of one...
1) I test shoot all my camera/lens combos beforehand wide open to check focus precision
2) I use different lenses or even camera/lens combos for every max aperture, i.e. if I want to shoot at f1.4, I use an 1.4 lens, that I checked focuses right wide open, if I want to shoot at f 2.8, I use a 2.8 lens, that I have checked wide open as well, etc.
This way, I avoid focus shift and I get the best bokeh possible for every aperture.
For model shooting, I would suggest to get 2 C Sonnars: one optimized for wide open, and one for f 2.8, the two lenses will cost you a half of the Summilux ASPH, and will do a better job - actually, you could also add a second hand Elmar M 50/2.8 and/or Planar 50/2, which hve no focus shift and are wonderful all round lenses with very nice bokeh - with all that you will have 4 lenses for the price of one...
YYV_146
Well-known
Shoot with live view on an xpro1!
Jokes aside, send your lens in for testing. I don't own the latest 50lux, but my experience with floating element lenses is that they should be spot on for most apertures.
Jokes aside, send your lens in for testing. I don't own the latest 50lux, but my experience with floating element lenses is that they should be spot on for most apertures.
Rangefinderfreak
Well-known
I think you have run into a problem that exists with leica optics with leica digital bodies:
The fine tune of the distance scales just don`t meet... Either your body or the lens is just slightly out of tune. We have here in Finland luckily an importer of Leica (Foka oy) that has a very qualified technican, who checks the body first and then fine tunes all the owner´s lenses to be just "spot on". The voigtländer lenses are very easy to adjust, just some thin spacers, also Zeiss (cosina) are very straightforward in their construction. Sometimes it is just so, that you have to send the body with the leica lens to Solms for calibration. Luckily that situation will improve when the new factory is ready in Wetzlar. Leitz don`t want to say this situation is the reality... You just had bad luck with your combo. If all lenses would be fine tuned at the factory, the price would just escalate more. I don`t really understand the reply of the NJ service guy... he should have said the facts to you...
The fine tune of the distance scales just don`t meet... Either your body or the lens is just slightly out of tune. We have here in Finland luckily an importer of Leica (Foka oy) that has a very qualified technican, who checks the body first and then fine tunes all the owner´s lenses to be just "spot on". The voigtländer lenses are very easy to adjust, just some thin spacers, also Zeiss (cosina) are very straightforward in their construction. Sometimes it is just so, that you have to send the body with the leica lens to Solms for calibration. Luckily that situation will improve when the new factory is ready in Wetzlar. Leitz don`t want to say this situation is the reality... You just had bad luck with your combo. If all lenses would be fine tuned at the factory, the price would just escalate more. I don`t really understand the reply of the NJ service guy... he should have said the facts to you...
[email protected]
Mentor
2WK: your best option in my opinion is to pass the body + lens to leica and ask them to realign it for you. as for sensor etc, they will clean it without cost.
i wrote a small post on testing it, pls see this post on fb:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151554898157602&set=gm.512255032177082&type=1&theater
hope it helps.
i wrote a small post on testing it, pls see this post on fb:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151554898157602&set=gm.512255032177082&type=1&theater
hope it helps.
MichaelToye
Well-known
My MM + 35mm Cron is fine. When my MM went back for a pixel remap, one listed repair item was 'Focus Recalibration' and i didn't think it was out anyway.
Send back MM & lens for recalibration.
Send back MM & lens for recalibration.
soultheworld
Established
i bought a 50 lux asph from a friend for my m9 and i noticed that the focus was not on wide open.
i live pretty close to Leica so i brought them my camera and lens. after checking it they noticed that the lens had a backfocus issue. i took the opportunity and had it coded, and adjusted to my camera. the focus is spot on now. superb lens, the best i have ever used.
i live pretty close to Leica so i brought them my camera and lens. after checking it they noticed that the lens had a backfocus issue. i took the opportunity and had it coded, and adjusted to my camera. the focus is spot on now. superb lens, the best i have ever used.
LCT
ex-newbie
Never got focus problems with my 50/1.4 asph on R-D1, M8.2 and M240. I would send both body and lens in if you did not do it already.
apostasiometritis
Established
The focusing error sounds like a lens error. It may be the case that the focusing cam is not properly ground (ie has dips on the surface). You won't be able to see them unfortunately, even the slightest difference is enough. I think that 1/20th of a mm is 5cm difference in focus.
I had two summicrons like that, when my 3rd turned out with a similar issue I lost my patience and sent the camera in for matching to the lens. All three suffered from backfocusing at close distances. Apart from the obvious rangefinder alignment methods accessible from the outside, when you open the camera there are even more adjustments available to allow for variable gain according to different distances etc.
Now the camera focuses fine with the 50 cron but not with my 35 or 28. But, their generous DoF covers the defect nicely.
I do have to say that in contrast, most of the voigtlander stuff I had was spot on.
It can be very frustrating, I know.
I had two summicrons like that, when my 3rd turned out with a similar issue I lost my patience and sent the camera in for matching to the lens. All three suffered from backfocusing at close distances. Apart from the obvious rangefinder alignment methods accessible from the outside, when you open the camera there are even more adjustments available to allow for variable gain according to different distances etc.
Now the camera focuses fine with the 50 cron but not with my 35 or 28. But, their generous DoF covers the defect nicely.
I do have to say that in contrast, most of the voigtlander stuff I had was spot on.
It can be very frustrating, I know.
ricnak
Well-known
i was a lucky one to get an m9 and 50lux as a gift a few years ago. the package delivered results that I had never dreamed of. My camera before was a Canon AE1. There were some issues with the M9 and focussing, I just put it down to my aging eyes.
I was more than 100% happy with it until a family holiday 6 months ago found me dropping the M9 on the floor from adult height while packing up. There was no escaping the misaligned rangefinder.
.
I sent it away with the 2 lenses I use most - it came back like a different camera, without the limitations that I thought rangefinders have. Even old eyes can achieve spot on focus.
No one wants to be without toys... but sometimes... you have to send them away.
I was more than 100% happy with it until a family holiday 6 months ago found me dropping the M9 on the floor from adult height while packing up. There was no escaping the misaligned rangefinder.
.
I sent it away with the 2 lenses I use most - it came back like a different camera, without the limitations that I thought rangefinders have. Even old eyes can achieve spot on focus.
No one wants to be without toys... but sometimes... you have to send them away.
leicapixie
Well-known
I really feel for your problem.
Truth is i see that as Digital imaging goes,
the RFDR, has run it's course.
The drifting, the lack of exact focus would make me crazier!
In the late 60's,almost everybody moved to the SLR.
Every pro i knew..The Leica for special tasks.
I used the SLR in 35mm and Medium Format.
More out of sentiment, than a better look, i used the M3.
I think an EVF is only answer.
Truth is i see that as Digital imaging goes,
the RFDR, has run it's course.
The drifting, the lack of exact focus would make me crazier!
In the late 60's,almost everybody moved to the SLR.
Every pro i knew..The Leica for special tasks.
I used the SLR in 35mm and Medium Format.
More out of sentiment, than a better look, i used the M3.
I think an EVF is only answer.
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icebear
Mentor
2WK, I feel for you but don't worry it will be fine in the end.
I had similar issues with my M9 and 1/50 and 2/90 (both pre asph).
The sensor position was optimized and the RF calibrated, then the lenses adjusted accordingly. That is the issue with mechanical connections w/o live view. You won't have this issue on the M240.
When they get your camera and lens matched perfectly, the results will be stellar.
As for focus control on the tiny LCD :
I trust that you zoomed in as far as possible with the thumb wheel, right ? If I do that and it looks sharp (this is close to 100% view on the PC screen) then it is in focus.
I had similar issues with my M9 and 1/50 and 2/90 (both pre asph).
The sensor position was optimized and the RF calibrated, then the lenses adjusted accordingly. That is the issue with mechanical connections w/o live view. You won't have this issue on the M240.
When they get your camera and lens matched perfectly, the results will be stellar.
As for focus control on the tiny LCD :
I trust that you zoomed in as far as possible with the thumb wheel, right ? If I do that and it looks sharp (this is close to 100% view on the PC screen) then it is in focus.
I think most pros would tell you to never shoot anything important with equipment you have not wrung out to the limit; this is no time for new stuff, no matter how shiny. They would also tell you never to use just one camera, lens or flash. A little healthy paranoia is called for here -- you have to presume something is going to go south somewhere along the line. I don't think Mercedes or Ferrari race their cars without backup tires, engines and everything you can think of. Benzes break down, so do Leicas. A strap once broke on my (heavy) motor driven Nikon F while shooting photos at CBS in Hollywood in 1974 and the camera crashed to the floor. But I had three other Nikon bodies with me.
airfrogusmc
Mentor
Back up for the back up for the back up. If it can go wrong at one time or another it will. Forgot to lock the tripod quick release on a 500 C/M and was going to another location on the same shoot. Put the camera and tripod over my shoulder and the camera slide right out of the tripod quick release and crashed hard on a marble floor. Luckily the film back that took most of the impact didn't bend it so bad as to cause a light leak on the already exposed frames. I had two more cameras in the case.