Most Reliable Electronic Rangefinder Camera?

[DownUnder]

The Contax G1. Minimalist. Zen. Why this greatly underrated camera is so widely disparaged, when it offers so much to the photographer and produces such exceptional results, is beyond me to understand.

Godfrey (#18) nailed it spot-on. Like every other similar camera of its time, the G1 (and its upgraded, overpriced, overrated clone, the G2) can no longer be repaired by the manufacturer (here's a challenge, name one such camera that can!!), but often as not a CLA will bring it back to optimum condition and it will then go on doing what it does, taking superlative images, for another long while.

In the mid-2000s I fell for the manure being spouted online and ended up with four G1s, as I have five lenses and I wanted to ensure a reliable stock of camera bodies to go on using the wonderful Zeiss (Cosina) lenses. All four have worked reliably since, excepting the first one I bought in 1995, which in 2006 stopped auto-rewinding film, but by fiddling with it I worked out a way to manually do the task - and after a year the auto-rewind somehow fixed itself and started working again, which it still does, after 15 years.

The G1 is a true gem of a camera, as any owner of one will attest.

(Added later) G1s are still oddly inexpensive, especially from Japan where sellers seem to delight in giving them away. As for the lenses, well... you can't have everything in life.

 

[Freakscene]

The Contax G1.

[snip] wonderful Zeiss (Cosina) lenses.

The G series lenses were made by Tomioka, the optical companythat supplied Yashica. All eventually bought by Kyocera, who dumped Contax in 2005. The Cosina lenses date from after this time.

But the G1 is excellent, and the lenses are sublime. The 45mm especially.

Marty

 

[Ricoh]

Sounds like your mind is made up and there's no point in further discussion.

I would point out, however, that all of the cameras you mentioned (Leica M7, Hasselblad Xpan, Fuji GF670) were *always* expensive cameras—don't understand the "at today's high prices" comment—and none of them have any particular history of either mechanical or electronic failures. And all three of them are still repairable today, supported by their manufacturers' service, or at least the M7 and the XPan are.

G

Hasselblad still service the XPan. I didn’t know that.
Being Hasselblad it won’t be cheap. I wonder if Fuji still service their equivalent to the XPan?

 

[Deardorff38]

I would point out, however, that all of the cameras you mentioned (Leica M7, Hasselblad Xpan, Fuji GF670) were *always* expensive cameras—don't understand the "at today's high prices" comment—and none of them have any particular history of either mechanical or electronic failures.

G

Godfrey, in 2010, new price for the GF670 was between $1800/2200 depending on whether it was badged Voigtlander or Fuji, now they're trading at $3-3500+ used. They did exhibit some problems. My neighbor sent his back to NJ for repairs twice and was then told they were no longer being repaired. As for the Hassleblad, I'm not keen on buying one knowing, i'll have to send it to Sweden to be repaired. Seeing you're in Silicon V, I can see your support of electronics . I'm not entirely against them. I won't cry when my XA becomes a tiny brick...it's served me well. I think the Nikon F3 is/was a magnificent pro camera & if i needed an SLR i'd buy one (or more) in a minute, I'm just avoiding the expensive electronic legends, I'm not that into gambling.

 

[hap]

Not much to say really that hasn't been beaten to death.

However, CLE, G2 are masterpieces. ONe will take the range of Leica lenses...the other the Zeiss/Cosina fabulous lenses.

 

[hap]

Have to admit....I had a Fuji GS645 for 15 years. It never failed electronically. The lens was one of the best I ever used. IT developed bellows problems and I practically gave it away. I still have a G645zi. It has gizmos galore but it always works.....when I get around to it.

 

[shawn]

Someone could, if only they knew they needed to make it.

There needs to be a savvy 3D manufacturer of camera parts, an entrepreneur, who knows which items there would be a demand for and which would be worthwhile to make. Ideally there would be a list. I can think of two items immediately:

1. The flat leaf spring for the Retina IIa exposure counter (spares have sold for over 100€)

2. The aperture stop-down ring mechanism behind the mount of Maxxum 7 cameras. There is a plastic tab on this ring which will eventually fail due to repeated hits as the aperture is stopped down. After this happens, lenses can no longer be stopped down. This has killed many Maxxum 7’s, as replacement mechanisms are no longer available (and still have the flaw).

The retina spring likely wouldn't last long printed in PLA or ABS or any common material since it would only be a couple of layers thick and really wouldn't be a spring. Less sure about the Maxxum part but if it is a plastic part that fails seems silly to make the entire thing out of plastic.

There are online 3d printing services that can print in metal but the cost would be crazy.

As an example I just quoted out one of the knobs for the Kraken cameras I print. When I print it it takes about 2 hours and 15 grams of material.

Online to print it in steel (likely not at 100% infill) the quote is $66.31, in brass it is $291.55

Either of those would likely be better served by on line machine shop or laser cutter for anyone that wants to do something like that.

https://www.emachineshop.com/
https://www.sculpteo.com/en/lasercutting/
etc...etc..

Shawn

 

[Darthfeeble]

It strikes me that all these cameras that are being tossed for lack of parts to repair them are the source of the parts others need..... Just an odd thought.

 

[styvone]

Styvone....i think i understand what you're asking, but i think there's a big difference between 'reliable' and 'serviceable'. Like keytar, i only have mechanical cameras...
But at current prices i wouldn't buy the following:
Mamiya 6, Leica M7, Fuji GF670, Minolta CLE, & of course the exorbitant P&S.
All for fear of owning a brick because parts aren't available.
The Mamiya 6 was one of my favourite cameras & i never had any problems with it.
Keytar i've used the Plaubels for years and the only problem i had was with one bought from a hi-end dealer ...& it had pinholes in the bellows. I currently have a PM 670...(bought exactly because it has no electronic circuit boards). Yes, it requires careful handling but i don't think that makes it inherently unreliable.

Ah, this is true. I meant to say 'serviceable' not 'reliable'. I'm in the same boat as you: I don't want to put so much money into one of these and have it brick on me without any viable repair options. It's not so much the breaking down part (many mechanical cameras do the same) - it's the lack of repair support. With all that being said though, I am still eyeing these Minolta CLEs and Contax G1s... Something about having a quick, automated mode to carry around.

 

[David Hughes]

I think part of the problem is that nowadays anything with a battery in it is called electronic regardless of how sophisticated it is. I don't call my front door bell electronic, by the way and to give an example.

Most "electronic" cameras have bits in them that some of us would call electric but never electronic; a good example is the power switch and there's the battery compartment and the lens; mechanical lenses interact with the electronics and so a stiff aperture iris can stop the camera working. Power switches are used a lot and can wok loose and again the camera works sometimes and sometimes not and as for battery compartments leaking nasty chemicals... All of these will knacker the camera but are easily repaired.

So, as I see it, electronic cameras are repairable if you are lucky but -this is a great big "but" btw - no technician wants to touch them because it takes time to find the fault and time to put the thing back together. And - on those odd occasions when a part must be replaced and isn't available - the poor technician isn't going to be paid for several hours work that results in a dud camera being returned as useless.

OTOH, the knowledgable ones can often recognise the fault and repair it by cleaning something or tightening a screw and so on. Sometimes just unplugging component and replacing the connection will do the trick as electronics work on very low voltages and a small increase in resistance can stop the thing working. And then there's "dry" solders, dead LED's and so on...


Just my 2p worth: regards, David

 

[jbrubaker]

Bessa repairability

Bessa repairability

Does Cameraquest provide repair for the automatic Bessa cameras? thanks --jb.

 

[Godfrey]

Godfrey, in 2010, new price for the GF670 was between $1800/2200 depending on whether it was badged Voigtlander or Fuji, now they're trading at $3-3500+ used. They did exhibit some problems. My neighbor sent his back to NJ for repairs twice and was then told they were no longer being repaired. As for the Hassleblad, I'm not keen on buying one knowing, i'll have to send it to Sweden to be repaired. Seeing you're in Silicon V, I can see your support of electronics . I'm not entirely against them. I won't cry when my XA becomes a tiny brick...it's served me well. I think the Nikon F3 is/was a magnificent pro camera & if i needed an SLR i'd buy one (or more) in a minute, I'm just avoiding the expensive electronic legends, I'm not that into gambling.

I had one of the Voigtländer 670 cameras. Nice lens, decent viewfinder, very, very clumsy in use. I didn't like it as much as my 1954 Perkeo II; kept that and sold the 670. The Perkeo II required three-four trips to the repair tech before all its issues were worked out completely, which was expensive because he had to make parts for some things. Otherwise it would be a brick today too.

It's costly to do photography, always has been. You may feel more secure with old mechanical things, but they break both with expensive repair needs or irreparably with the same or greater frequency than most "electronic" things. That's a reality.

G

 

[Deardorff38]

It's costly to do photography, always has been. You may feel more secure with old mechanical things, but they break both with expensive repair needs or irreparably with the same or greater frequency than most "electronic" things. That's a reality.

G

G, I'm willing to continue the conversation. This isn't a cost consideration. I more than suspect that in the words of Carlos Castaneda we see "separate reality." In my decades of photography in what some may consider 'extreme' conditions, i haven't had a mechanical camera break down. Working in the mountains in Alaska, the Alps and Canadian Rockies in all 4 seasons.....i've chosen not to rely on electronic cameras that rely on battery power & that decision has brought home the photos i have been after. But lately it's more a question of parts/service availability rather than reliability. For example i wouldn't buy a Contax T3, as fine a small camera as it is, not because it's inherently unreliable..... but because its is no longer supported with parts and service....& as Larry C mentioned, it's currently more expensive than a nice Nikon F2 Titan.

 

[Dogman]

It strikes me that all these cameras that are being tossed for lack of parts to repair them are the source of the parts others need..... Just an odd thought.

This.

Being an unrepentant online window shopper for photo gear, I see used cameras all the time being sold for parts. Independent shops buy and strip them as needed to keep their customer's cameras going. I doubt Leica still makes parts for the IIIc or Zeiss makes parts for the Contax but parts are still available.

And I gotta agree with Godfrey on reliability of electronic cameras. My experience is the electronic models are more reliable and require less maintenance.

 

[shawn]

XPan Full Kit, all lenses...

Shawn

 

[Deardorff38]

XPan Full Kit, all lenses...

Shawn

A great bargain @ $10k plus. I think i'll buy it so i can scan & post panoramic images onto social media....

 

[bluesun267]

This topic piqued my interest since I recently purchased a Hexar RF after many years of mechanical Leica Ms & Barnacks as well as a variety of Canon RFs (I don't plan to stop using any of the above just because I got the Hexar though). The Hexar is a great camera, and out of all the mechanical cameras I've owned I've never seen a more accurate shutter at 1/1000th sec--let alone the 1/2000 and 1/4000 capability!

Unrelated to the mechanics, the Hexar is reaching that point (~20 years old give or take) where non-user accessible foam light seals, particularly underneath the rangefinder mechanism, are starting to disintegrate. (I replaced these on my camera).

In researching the Hexar, the most concerning thing to me is that the Hexar, like its brethren the Contax G1/G2 and the Xpan, relies on a Eeprom memory chip to perform its functions, simple as they are. Eeprom memory isn't supposed to ever erase or become corrupted, but we all know bad things can, and do, happen to silicon chips! From what I can gather, the few Hexars that genuinely can't be repaired stem from an Eeprom issue (I'm not talking about whether a repair person says it can't be repaired). The good news is that most of the time the memory is intact and a mechanical part (such as a gear or the shutter) has failed, causing an out-of-sequence error code).


The analog tape world is going through similar changes in that no one makes a lot of the things that used to be taken for granted in maintaining tape decks. A few aficionados are stepping up and bravely re-manufacturing new parts, either by CNC machining, 3D printing or injection molding. It seems quite often though 3D printed parts don't have tight enough tolerances or the material available is just not right (for example, gears/pulleys that must have a certain coefficient of drag/friction in order to work). 3D printing is not a panacea.

In the long run, I say use whatever camera you have, or can get, and don't obsess over something that may or may not happen. That being, said, I would not bring the Hexar to a once-in-a-lifetime shoot without one of my mechanical cameras as backup! That's as much because it's new to me right now than anything else. After I get to know it for a while, I might feel differently

 

[Retro-Grouch]

If I had the $10,488 burning a hole in my Armani suit pocket, I'd drop it in an instant on the Xpan. Much as I'm opposed to buying electronic cameras, there are some like the Xpan with feature sets that are not duplicated in mechanical cameras. These I will consider owning, in the full expectation that they will probably develop problems or die at some point, with no possibility of repair.
Case in point: I just bought a Minolta CLE. It has 40mm and 28mm framelines, is compact and offers auto exposure. You can't find that in any other camera. I did hedge my bets by getting one in mint condition, with a CLA. But ya pays yer money, and ya takes yer chances!

 

[Deardorff38]

But ya pays yer money, and ya takes yer chances!

Exactly & succinctly put!

 

[shawn]

If I had the $10,488 burning a hole in my Armani suit pocket, I'd drop it in an instant on the Xpan. Much as I'm opposed to buying electronic cameras, there are some like the Xpan with feature sets that are not duplicated in mechanical cameras. These I will consider owning, in the full expectation that they will probably develop problems or die at some point, with no possibility of repair.
Case in point: I just bought a Minolta CLE. It has 40mm and 28mm framelines, is compact and offers auto exposure. You can't find that in any other camera. I did hedge my bets by getting one in mint condition, with a CLA. But ya pays yer money, and ya takes yer chances!

Sure, but the CLE is about 1/20th the cost. I have one too, great little camera. And its lenses are fully functional on other bodies, I'm sure there are XPan lens adapters out there but I doubt they are RF coupled with anything.

Shawn