PKR
Mentor
Drug test congress and make them liable for what they do.. good luck.
ornate_wrasse
Moderator
I guess I am not surprised by this. A couple years ago I had to go into the local county courthouse where everyone had to put their possessions through an airport type scanner prior to entering the building. After my possessions were scanned, I was told I couldn't bring photography equipment into the courthouse. It turns out that my Sekonic Light Meter (which I had inadvertently left in my purse) was mistaken for a camera. The older gentleman in charge was not going to let me in, but a younger woman explained to him that it was a light meter and not a camera. :bang:
valdas
Mentor
so what are these guys, are they in great danger if in US?
PRJ
Another Day in Paradise
You know what they say, when you are stupid and holding a hammer everything looks like a nail.
I think the FBI should be made to investigate every shooting and it should be a federal offense. That would go a loooong way to solving the problem. Impunity needs to go away. Period.
I think the FBI should be made to investigate every shooting and it should be a federal offense. That would go a loooong way to solving the problem. Impunity needs to go away. Period.
Bill Clark
Mentor
Cops are human like the rest of us. There isn't any one and easy solution.
For police recruitment, I suggest to hire more veterans who served in war as they have been under stressful situations and usually react in a certain way. Experience helps.
Emotions can get out of whack during a particular event. Reaction to a situation later wished it hadn't been made. Training helps but the real thing can be very different.
Money can help. Signing bonus and other financial incentives. Good people need to be paid. My first house I paid 30k in 1974. On active duty, early sevenities, some rates that were critical, meaning needing people, paid up to 20k signing bonus to re-up. And in the combat zone the money was federal and state tax free.
No easy solutions.
As photographers be aware of your surroundings. If you're going out somewhere maybe let authorities know. Things are different now since nine eleven and 24 hr. instant news.
For police recruitment, I suggest to hire more veterans who served in war as they have been under stressful situations and usually react in a certain way. Experience helps.
Emotions can get out of whack during a particular event. Reaction to a situation later wished it hadn't been made. Training helps but the real thing can be very different.
Money can help. Signing bonus and other financial incentives. Good people need to be paid. My first house I paid 30k in 1974. On active duty, early sevenities, some rates that were critical, meaning needing people, paid up to 20k signing bonus to re-up. And in the combat zone the money was federal and state tax free.
No easy solutions.
As photographers be aware of your surroundings. If you're going out somewhere maybe let authorities know. Things are different now since nine eleven and 24 hr. instant news.
Pioneer
Mentor
I agree Bill. This would be a good start. Decent pay and regular raises for a very tough job would go a long ways towards improving recruitment.
Tough to get people to pay taxes to ensure good people are being paid a living wage. People like to complain but it is tough to get them to match their rhetoric with money.
But the carrot is only one half of the equation. In addition there has to be real and direct accountability whenever force, especially deadly force, is employed. I am not sure the FBI is the answer but an independent review board with the ability to enforce their decisions would certainly help.
Easy to talk about but much harder to put real improvements in place.
BillBingham2
Registered User
They are held liable for everything they do. It's a multi-sided problem with dozens of contributing factors.
B2 (;->
rybolt
Well-known
This happened a few miles from where I live and the photographer who was shot was a customer of mine when I had my store. The photographer and the shooter are still friends.
The officer had lots of experience but obviously not enough training. Oddly enough, they had both recently been working at a 'live fire' exhibit at our county fair where civilians were put into simulated situations.
The officer had lots of experience but obviously not enough training. Oddly enough, they had both recently been working at a 'live fire' exhibit at our county fair where civilians were put into simulated situations.
oftheherd
Mentor
How could it happen? Who knows? Nothing much in this thread gives any facts or insight beyond your link.
So true. No right-minded person wants a police state. But most of the (mostly) emotional sounding commenters in this thread are apparently unwilling to ask for more information than that provided in the Head Bartender's link. Are mistakes made? You betcha! But why condemn all cops? Why tell police that in effect they must allow themselves to be shot at, preferably at least twice, before they return fire. That may have worked for Matt Dillon, but not these days.
As to the police who are willing to lie to preserve their jobs and/or freedom. Where do you suppose police come from, the bad eggs that are thrown out of the nest? They are people, civilians who decided to become police. Many, in fact I think most, start out wanting to be police to serve their fellow man. Granted, not all for sure. And certainly not Johnny Gangbanger, fresh out of jail and looking to re-assert his reputation in the hood. Do you think the "bad guys" are all paragons of virtue who would die rather than tell a lie?
When I was in my high school sociology class in the mid 50s, our book pointed out that people sometimes chose professions to further feelings other than altruism. One example was people who join police forces for the authority they got over other people. So what have we been doing for the last 60 years in recruitment?
The point of the two above paragraphs is first, police are people just like those on this forum. Some are very good and decent people. Some on RFF are incensed that anyone would tell them they can't go anywhere they chose, and shoot any photo, regardless of any laws to the contrary.
rybolt - Thank you so much for the insight provided. It may not explain why the officer shot the photographer who it turned out was a friend. But if the photographer remains a friend, who are we, without first hand knowledge of the incident, to judge the officer?
Oh, one more comment since I am on a roll of sorts, getting combat veterans to be policemen isn't an unknown practice. Will they screen them for violent PTSD tendencies? PTSD has just as many reactions as there are reasons for having it. So a person might have PTSD and still be as OK as any other citizen. And former soldiers will have had some weapons training. Of course most of that training, in application, indicated they had to make split second decisions on shooting or not, if they wanted to survive.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
I have had a Nikon F3P equipt with MD-4 and handstrap mistaken for a gun in Queens Plaza by a regular citizen. I figured out quickly that this man running for cover and I could read his fear, all because my black camera resembled a handgun because I carried it like a pistol dangling in my right hand using a Nikon AH-4 Handstrap that you wear like a glove.
On a different day in Long Island City not far away from Queens Plaza I also had my Gossen Luna Pro mistakenly suggest that I was an undercover cop by a truck driver that evidently had dialed 911.
"You took long enough to get here," he said to me.
And when I appeared confused not understanding his context, he further explained that he had dialed 911 and had been waiting for a while. So evidently I was also mistaken as a cop.
I have also had NYPD have their guns drawn on me in a case of mistaken identity. It was just like in the Rolling Stones song "Heartbreaker" based on a true story of a kid killed by NYPD in a case of mistaken identity. This song was rather disturbingly profound for me because I was a young teenager and this event happened around that time that that recording came out.
It was late at night right along the Queens Nassau border on Hook Creek Bulavard, when a NYPD cop car came close to running me over skeaching into a halt. Two cops jumped out of the car with their guns drawn. I kinda now realize that if I had run, which would of been natural instint of fight or flee, I probably and likely would have been shot like the boy in "Heartbreaker."
One cop yelled, "Freeze or I'll shoot," meanwhile the other cop moved beyond my sight so I could not see what or where he was. The one cop made it abundantly clear that if I moved at all I would be ventilated, and to only move when directed to do so. Again he repeated one false or sudden move and he would shoot me.
When directed I was able to show him my ID, and the police took off as rapidly as they had surprised me. I am an Asian, and in the early 70's there were not many in my town of Valley Stream. Asians were such a novelty back then that I knew of a guy around my age who lived in Rosedale Queens. I knew his name was Tommy TXX, like I said because we really stood out in our communities.
All I know that makes any sense was that these two cops were likely trigger happy because a fellow officer likely either got Kung Fu'ed, shot or killed by Tommy TXX.
A second time where I had NYPD guns drawn on me was during a robbery of a McDonalds in Rosedale, Queens. I was a cashier that day at work, when the cops came in (Pre SWAT-TEAM era) from every entrance, guns drawn, and pointing at me because one of the perps (there originally were 4) was standing directly behind me.
If there was a shootout I surely would have been ventilated. If there was a hostage situation, the likely hostage would of been me. Luckily the perp did not have his handgun in hand and it lay on top of all the cash in a box that had been emptied from the store's safe.
This man was arrested and handcuffed. Two of the perps had gotten away. This man earlier had pistol whipped the manager to have him open the safe. Also earlier a different perp had shot at a different store manager who was following him outside.
So I stood nearby when Hector, the one Manger who got pistol whipped, jumped the front counter, threw the perp who had pistol whipped him to the ground and repeatedly kicked him in the head like a shot on an open goal during a soccer game. Meanwhile the cop guarding the perp who was responsible looked on with me as this man took a rather savage beating with his hands cuffed behind his back.
It was rather interesting how the cop restrained Hector and made him stop. The officer touched Hector gently on the arm and spoke gently and said rather politely, "Please stop." The way he said it really was almost like permission to perhaps only kick him in the head one more time.
A third time I could of been shot also happened before I was eighteen. I went to a bakery near my house in the suburbs of Long Island to buy something, and the girl behind the counter yelled to me upon entering the store that she had just been roobbed and to run to look for the guy with the hat. I ran out and saw a man with a hat getting into his car and driving away, and I took note of the license plate.
It was later when the Nassau County Police arrived and I was questioned that I found out that the man with the hat had a gun. Also the guy with the hat was not the guy with the hat that had committed the robbery.
So in 1978 I suddenly found myself in a full blown riot. It was an odd 4th of July with low humidity and a beautiful day. I went to Eisienhower Park near the Nassau Colliseum to await the fireworks show scheduled for later that night when it got dark. Young people like myself camped out with picknics, coolers full of beer, and the grassy lawns were more like young people hanging out on a beach. People were throwing Frisbees, and every once in a while I got a turn when an errant throw came my way.
It was around dusk when I went to the bathroom in the back of the band-shell to pee. When I got there some drunk kid threw a beer bottle into the band-shell and it popped in an amplified manner taking advantage of the great acoustics.
After I pee'ed, when I came out I noticed a group of drunks had accumulated and they had gathered garbage bags of bottles and were breaking them in a manner that resembled machine gun fire. I paid no mine and continued walking towards my group of friends; I had not noticed the Nassau County cops forming a picket line to converge where I was coming from, but they advanced and began moving towards me.
A young couple also was walking towards me holding hands. I could tell they were in love by the way they expressed their happiness, sharing their bliss with the world. And then I heard this awful sound of a nightstick cracking a skull. The boy collapsed onto the ground. His girlfriend knelt over him, I heard that awfull sound of a nightstick against a skull again, and now the girl fell with her head laying on her boyfriend's chest.
The cop in full riot gear was about step and a half from striking distance. He seemed surprise that I saw what he just did. I stood there defiantly looking him in the eye and judging him for what he just did. If I was going to be clubbed with a nightstick, I at least would not be surprised, but this cop was a coward. All he did while I stood my ground is stand his. All he had to take is a step forward and he would almost be able to swing and hit me.
Perhaps he realized what he had done. Perhaps he realized he was wrong in hurting two innocent people. Perhaps he did not want to destroy my face. Maybe me standing there looking him in the eye made him change his mind about hitting me.
He pointed to me with his weapon and told me to walk away from him, I did not trust him, I explained that my friends with my ride home was behind him, but he pointed again with his nightstick, and I followed his direction.
I really did not know if when I turned away if I would get a night stick against my skull anyways, but in the end I just ended up walking away. I do feel that our interaction did make me human and more difficult for him to strike me.
By now it was dark, and I was in shock. I ended up hitch hiking on the entrance ramp to the Southern State Parkway. I was surprised someone stopped right away. I recognized the driver's distinct voice and asked if he was Larry Klienman, a DJ from WLIR. It was. I barely mentioned the riot I experienced and rode in silence. Larry dropped me off at Exit 13, and I walked home.
I am no hero, but I will say under difficult circumstances, no less difficult than what LEO's have to deal with every day, somehow I made the correct decisions. I would not want to be forced to make all those right decisions every day at work, and this is from someone who had the wrong end of a gun pointed at him on two occasions by cops.
I'm not trying to justify what that cop in riot gear did. Clearly the cops were outnumbered, and their job involved a show of force to assert their authourity or the alternative would have been a total loss of control. It was a means to an ends, yet innocent people got hurt.
Here in NYC I can say that I likely live in the safest large city on the planet. This isn't the 1970's anymore. Thankfully the NYPD I think are the best, yet still wrong doings and innocent people get hurt and killed.
Cal
On a different day in Long Island City not far away from Queens Plaza I also had my Gossen Luna Pro mistakenly suggest that I was an undercover cop by a truck driver that evidently had dialed 911.
"You took long enough to get here," he said to me.
And when I appeared confused not understanding his context, he further explained that he had dialed 911 and had been waiting for a while. So evidently I was also mistaken as a cop.
I have also had NYPD have their guns drawn on me in a case of mistaken identity. It was just like in the Rolling Stones song "Heartbreaker" based on a true story of a kid killed by NYPD in a case of mistaken identity. This song was rather disturbingly profound for me because I was a young teenager and this event happened around that time that that recording came out.
It was late at night right along the Queens Nassau border on Hook Creek Bulavard, when a NYPD cop car came close to running me over skeaching into a halt. Two cops jumped out of the car with their guns drawn. I kinda now realize that if I had run, which would of been natural instint of fight or flee, I probably and likely would have been shot like the boy in "Heartbreaker."
One cop yelled, "Freeze or I'll shoot," meanwhile the other cop moved beyond my sight so I could not see what or where he was. The one cop made it abundantly clear that if I moved at all I would be ventilated, and to only move when directed to do so. Again he repeated one false or sudden move and he would shoot me.
When directed I was able to show him my ID, and the police took off as rapidly as they had surprised me. I am an Asian, and in the early 70's there were not many in my town of Valley Stream. Asians were such a novelty back then that I knew of a guy around my age who lived in Rosedale Queens. I knew his name was Tommy TXX, like I said because we really stood out in our communities.
All I know that makes any sense was that these two cops were likely trigger happy because a fellow officer likely either got Kung Fu'ed, shot or killed by Tommy TXX.
A second time where I had NYPD guns drawn on me was during a robbery of a McDonalds in Rosedale, Queens. I was a cashier that day at work, when the cops came in (Pre SWAT-TEAM era) from every entrance, guns drawn, and pointing at me because one of the perps (there originally were 4) was standing directly behind me.
If there was a shootout I surely would have been ventilated. If there was a hostage situation, the likely hostage would of been me. Luckily the perp did not have his handgun in hand and it lay on top of all the cash in a box that had been emptied from the store's safe.
This man was arrested and handcuffed. Two of the perps had gotten away. This man earlier had pistol whipped the manager to have him open the safe. Also earlier a different perp had shot at a different store manager who was following him outside.
So I stood nearby when Hector, the one Manger who got pistol whipped, jumped the front counter, threw the perp who had pistol whipped him to the ground and repeatedly kicked him in the head like a shot on an open goal during a soccer game. Meanwhile the cop guarding the perp who was responsible looked on with me as this man took a rather savage beating with his hands cuffed behind his back.
It was rather interesting how the cop restrained Hector and made him stop. The officer touched Hector gently on the arm and spoke gently and said rather politely, "Please stop." The way he said it really was almost like permission to perhaps only kick him in the head one more time.
A third time I could of been shot also happened before I was eighteen. I went to a bakery near my house in the suburbs of Long Island to buy something, and the girl behind the counter yelled to me upon entering the store that she had just been roobbed and to run to look for the guy with the hat. I ran out and saw a man with a hat getting into his car and driving away, and I took note of the license plate.
It was later when the Nassau County Police arrived and I was questioned that I found out that the man with the hat had a gun. Also the guy with the hat was not the guy with the hat that had committed the robbery.
So in 1978 I suddenly found myself in a full blown riot. It was an odd 4th of July with low humidity and a beautiful day. I went to Eisienhower Park near the Nassau Colliseum to await the fireworks show scheduled for later that night when it got dark. Young people like myself camped out with picknics, coolers full of beer, and the grassy lawns were more like young people hanging out on a beach. People were throwing Frisbees, and every once in a while I got a turn when an errant throw came my way.
It was around dusk when I went to the bathroom in the back of the band-shell to pee. When I got there some drunk kid threw a beer bottle into the band-shell and it popped in an amplified manner taking advantage of the great acoustics.
After I pee'ed, when I came out I noticed a group of drunks had accumulated and they had gathered garbage bags of bottles and were breaking them in a manner that resembled machine gun fire. I paid no mine and continued walking towards my group of friends; I had not noticed the Nassau County cops forming a picket line to converge where I was coming from, but they advanced and began moving towards me.
A young couple also was walking towards me holding hands. I could tell they were in love by the way they expressed their happiness, sharing their bliss with the world. And then I heard this awful sound of a nightstick cracking a skull. The boy collapsed onto the ground. His girlfriend knelt over him, I heard that awfull sound of a nightstick against a skull again, and now the girl fell with her head laying on her boyfriend's chest.
The cop in full riot gear was about step and a half from striking distance. He seemed surprise that I saw what he just did. I stood there defiantly looking him in the eye and judging him for what he just did. If I was going to be clubbed with a nightstick, I at least would not be surprised, but this cop was a coward. All he did while I stood my ground is stand his. All he had to take is a step forward and he would almost be able to swing and hit me.
Perhaps he realized what he had done. Perhaps he realized he was wrong in hurting two innocent people. Perhaps he did not want to destroy my face. Maybe me standing there looking him in the eye made him change his mind about hitting me.
He pointed to me with his weapon and told me to walk away from him, I did not trust him, I explained that my friends with my ride home was behind him, but he pointed again with his nightstick, and I followed his direction.
I really did not know if when I turned away if I would get a night stick against my skull anyways, but in the end I just ended up walking away. I do feel that our interaction did make me human and more difficult for him to strike me.
By now it was dark, and I was in shock. I ended up hitch hiking on the entrance ramp to the Southern State Parkway. I was surprised someone stopped right away. I recognized the driver's distinct voice and asked if he was Larry Klienman, a DJ from WLIR. It was. I barely mentioned the riot I experienced and rode in silence. Larry dropped me off at Exit 13, and I walked home.
I am no hero, but I will say under difficult circumstances, no less difficult than what LEO's have to deal with every day, somehow I made the correct decisions. I would not want to be forced to make all those right decisions every day at work, and this is from someone who had the wrong end of a gun pointed at him on two occasions by cops.
I'm not trying to justify what that cop in riot gear did. Clearly the cops were outnumbered, and their job involved a show of force to assert their authourity or the alternative would have been a total loss of control. It was a means to an ends, yet innocent people got hurt.
Here in NYC I can say that I likely live in the safest large city on the planet. This isn't the 1970's anymore. Thankfully the NYPD I think are the best, yet still wrong doings and innocent people get hurt and killed.
Cal
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
You don't have to have been in the military to have PTSD. Vicariously just growing up in the 1970's, my conditioned responses, and instinct for survival would make me a very poor candidate to be a cop.
Even before I was eighteen I could of been shot three times, and that was just a result of growing up in New York in the 1970's.
I really don't know how I got this old. I wan't expecting to become an old man growing up the way I did.
Cal
oftheherd
Mentor
You are quite correct. I know a man in police work who thought he had messed up and let a bad guy get away with a serious crime. He had left us and later developed PTSD. And as it turned out, the bad guy didn't get away with anything anyway.
Glad you are still with us. You have certainly had your share of dangerous times. Hope that isn't happening to you much any more.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
OTH,
Thanks.
I have deep sympathy for our veterans. It does seem like victims of trauma later in life embrace risky behavior. In my case having faced life threatening danger so frequently before I became an adult encouraged dangerous behavior and risk taking later in life. It is a strange dynamic and can be rather self-destructive.
It was in my early thirties that I had to learn how to relax. I had never learned how to be calm, and I use to be explosively aggressive. I was also so wired that I scared people. Bouncers would say, "We don't want trouble." People were afraid of me. Pretty much I was a time bomb.
Took me a long time to cope and learn new behaviors. Today I could not be happier. My thinking and experience is that events eventually catch up with Police, Firemen, and people in the military that experienced combat situations. Not everybody has that resilience that is required or the right personality.
Crazy stuff is finding out how fast my Jeep can go out west. The speedometer only went to 85 MPH, but I calculated a 20% speedometer error so just over 100 mph due to a lift and oversized tires. At 100 MPH a Jeep is barely on the ground, and expansion cracks skip beats if there is any rise in a road.
It only takes about an hour to drain a full 23 gallon tank at 100 MPH BTW. My PTSD compelled me to do such behaviors, yet at the age of 49 I ran the NYC Marathon "off the couch" without any training in under 5 hours. A friend at work had over-train and became too sick to run. He offered me his bib so I could run in his place. Had one full day to get ready before the race.
In my early thirties my body could not take the stress. I really did not sleep. I took up cycling and began racing Mountain Bikes and road racing on a bike to learn how to relax. I became a driven endurance athlete to cope.
It was because of muscle memory, knowing my body, and a huge base of training that allowed me to run a Marathon with no training at the age of 49. My half Marathon time was 2:20, but I made a serious mistake and stopped to pee and the resulting 7 minutes later made the second half painful on the verge of cramps. My gal was worried that I would cross the finish line and drop just like the original first marathoner. LOL.
In a way bicycling saved my life. Today photography is more important. Photography makes sense when the rest of the world does not. Anyways I have challenged the challenge and have had both an interesting and adventurous life. I had to conquer fear.
Hats off to all those who serve to protect whether a civilian or military.
Cal
stompyq
Well-known
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd/index.shtml
Just putting this out there
Just putting this out there
Roger Hicks
Mentor
Anyone else here own a Photosniper?
The old friend to whom I gave mine died, so now I have it back (his daughter passed it on to me).
Cheers,
R.
The old friend to whom I gave mine died, so now I have it back (his daughter passed it on to me).
Cheers,
R.
frank-grumman
Well-known
don't have one of those, Roger, but sure wish I did 
Chris101
summicronia
Premeditated or not, this type of behavior on the part of one we trust to use deadly force on our citizens, should not be allowed.
oftheherd
Mentor
No sir, I don't and never did. I don't remember seeing anyone use one. I do remember seeing them advertised in photo magazines. I think I remember seeing them advertised in Spiratone adds. Did you actually use yours?
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
I agree with your sentiment, but the FBI has a seriously troubled history itself!
~Cheers,
Joe
BillBingham2
Registered User
Best idea I've heard on this one in a long time, I like it.
Yes, the FBI has their issues, but at least we might be larger publicity for the number of people shot by LEOs every year. I've heard some different numbers, all of them are shockingly high IMHO.
Our legislators at the federal level have effectively stopped all research into any form of gun violence. Sun light is a wonderful disinfectant for lens fungus and things like this.
B2 (;->