frank-grumman
Well-known
Intriguing thread... I'd be interested in knowing how many of you all who have posted here have actually ever been in a scenario based training exercise. Many PD's offer those opportunities to private citizens to afford them a close hand look at what the experience is like. Call up your local PD and ask them if they have a Citizen Police Academy that would offer that opportunity. It's the old saw: If you haven't walked a mile in their shoes, then STFU, and that's especially true in potentially deadly force contexts. Don't believe me? Try it out!!
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Having been at the business end of drawn guns as well I can appreciate your post Cal. Many police are taking a stronger tack than is warranted. Not only with guns, but with simple harassment. Long gone are the days when a cop who walked a beat would keep a youngster in line with a wagged finger. Nowadays they are more likely to have a knee in a kids ribs while he's on the ground for questioning the legality of being questioned for being out after 10pm. And why not? I have little respect for the police around here since their actions so often do little to engender respect. Our chief has been fired for inappropriate sexual misconduct with a subordinate, turns out the Sargent who is filling in while we look for a replacement was let off a few years back for the same thing. Pathetic conduct from those who are supposed to be keeping the peace, and actions that do not deserve respect from respectable people. And kids are plenty smart to see through the bullying tactics.
Nobody in civil society should be above the law. Even if the cop pleads it was accidental that should not prevent him from facing the same penalty that the photographer would had he used a gun and shot someone. Far too often these days it seems the cops are allowed to be above the law.
End rant.
Nobody in civil society should be above the law. Even if the cop pleads it was accidental that should not prevent him from facing the same penalty that the photographer would had he used a gun and shot someone. Far too often these days it seems the cops are allowed to be above the law.
End rant.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
The problem is in the current mindset of what is deadly threatening. A camera is not. A kid simply trying to get home for his midnight curfew is not. Having black skin is not. Civil society is a two-way street, and when the power is left in the hands of those who are able to abuse it without repercussions then we are all hurt.
Tim Murphy
Well-known
He shot a dude with a camera on a tripod, who was a friend
He shot a dude with a camera on a tripod, who was a friend
Dear Frank,
Walk a mile in their shoes?
The policeman shot a friend of his who had a camera on a tripod. I don't care how you look at things, if you can't see a problem with that you need better glasses, and not the other guy's shoes.
Regards,
Tim Murphy
Harrisburg, PA
He shot a dude with a camera on a tripod, who was a friend
Dear Frank,
Walk a mile in their shoes?
The policeman shot a friend of his who had a camera on a tripod. I don't care how you look at things, if you can't see a problem with that you need better glasses, and not the other guy's shoes.
Regards,
Tim Murphy
Harrisburg, PA
oftheherd
Mentor
Dear Frank,
Walk a mile in their shoes?
The policeman shot a friend of his who had a camera on a tripod. I don't care how you look at things, if you can't see a problem with that you need better glasses, and not the other guy's shoes.
Regards,
Tim Murphy
Harrisburg, PA
I think there's a problem with your statement. We don't have all the facts of what happened, or why the officer thought he was reacting to a weapon.
If he was being unnecessarily careless, or arrogant, throw the book at him. If his actions are borderline understandable, maybe not.
I don't advocate protecting stupid. But wearing blue isn't proof of stupid. I don't support blaming every police officer for the actions of others, nor of supporting bad cops or even departments, because a department has a few good cops only.
You are correct that good 'glasses' are needed; ones that see all aspects of an incident should be used. And as to the saying about walking in someone's shoes, how about trying it so you can say you have, and therefore can speak with authority? That is, working in a neighborhood where all police are considered targets, or being given a lookout for a dangerous person who has just shot another officer with a rifle (on a rainy night with poor visibility), and you by yourself have just stopped a care reported stolen. Don't know if any of that applies, but within one year it could.
The problem as I stated before, is that we really don't know the circumstances. I am sorry for both the officer and the newsperson in this reported shooting. But I don't want to jump to conclusions about reasons for this happening without as many facts as possible.
oftheherd
Mentor
No, a camera is not. But on a dark rainy night, with an object such as a light meter on a handle, what would you do? Shout out "Hey, I am officer friendly, you want to shoot the mean sergeant at the donut shop around the corner." More than likely, if you spot what you think is someone pointing a gun at you, you will get your gun out and shoot. And giving a command to drop the supposed gun would be nice, but do you give it before you have your gun in your hand, or after, and during all that decision time, will you get shot for hesitating?
Trying to get home for curfew (why miss it to begin with?), having black skin (no, nor being Asian, nor white if you are a black officer). But that does not appear to be the case here.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
OTH,
Makes a good point.
DISCLAIMER: The following actually happened, and I take responsibility for injuring and hurting an innocent person.
Understand it was in the 70's in NYC. This was an era of high crime and lawlessness. In 1974 NYC almost became like Detroit and was almost bankrupt.
So I was in the subway at 168th Street in Jamaica Queens, I was counting how many subway tokens I had, and someone approached me from behind and tapped me on the shoulder.
For me it was a matter of free association becoming "Free Assassination," partially a conditioned response from previous episodes of life threatening danger, where the subway system in the 70's was a dangerous place, I was counting money, and I was being surprised by being approached from behind.
So I turned and cold cocked a teenager not much younger than myself. Pretty much I laid him down. "Why did you hit me?" he said.
After the fact I realized that I over reacted, but really under the circumstances in the moment did I do the right thing? Hard to say, even though it was a mistake. I do understand why I did what I did. I can also say that under a similar situation today I really don't know how I would respond.
Not sure how others might of reacted, but research indicates that perhaps 3/4's of the population would of acted differently.
The kid only wanted to know if he was on the correct side for the train to Madhattan, but he made the innocent mistake of approaching someone from behind.
In WWII there was one study that suggested Army soldiers on their first day of combat were being killed at a high rate, and without having fired their weapon. It seems boot camp had inadiquitly had failed to prepare them for real combat. I am sure for some fear froze them, for others it was the inability to think under such duress, and for some it really was about the morality of violence and using lethal force. This study suggested that in WWII only 1/4 of the men in their first day of combat were able to fire their weapon.
In another study it suggests that during the Vietnam War that if new troops on the ground survived the first two weeks of combat that their odds of surviving their tour of duty rose dramatically.
In an analogy to these studies I mentioned I have an experience that supports the data.
I work in a nuclear physics lab: I run, operate and maintain a three and a half million dollar cyclotron (partical beam accelerator). One day at work I told my boss I was running down the block to Citibank to get cash from an ATM, but on my way back to work I saw that my building was evacuated due to a fire alarm, and I took notice that my boss was missing.
I have reason to dislike my boss, basically he is a jerk, but I broke procedure and did not follow my training, and I entered what could be like running into a burning building. When I got to my lab about 70-80 feet undergound which is built like a bunker I found out that the fire was real.
I saw my boss holding a CO2 fire extinguisher frozen right in front of an electrical cabinet that was on fire. Oddly a PhD Radio Chemist and a chemistry technician also stood by frozen. My boss had the same training I had, the fire extinguisher also was marked "safe for electrical fires," but my boss was unable to use his training and in that moment was also unable to read or process any information.
So basically I witnessed three smart highly educated people that were totally overwhelmed and unable to think, react, or process information. IMHO this is what really happens in an emergency.
I am no hero, but I had the sense to grab another CO2 fire extinguisher, pull the safety pin, and told my boss that it is safe to use the CO2 extinguisher and that a second one is right behind him.
I also told the other two bystanders not to leave my boss alone, and directed them that I was going to get the key and turn off the main breaker that was feeding the electrical fire.
So in a real life emergancy I witnessed three people who could not respond like in the WWII study, and only because I had experience with life threatening emergencies in my past that I was the only person able to respond to the stress that froze others.
I have not worn the uniform or shield, but I think I have had similar experiences that were potentially life threatening. I honestly told my boss that the next time I will not risk my life for him. LOL.
BTW the major cause of death among Cyclotron Engineers is electricution. My machine has voltages as high as 50K volts, and currents as high as 500 amps. When at full power and operating it consumes 80K kilowatts, or the equivelent power of 80 thousand hair driers.
Luckily the fire suppression system in my new building was faulty and did not get triggered. It seems the negative air pressure of my vault direct the smoke away from the smoke detectors.
Cal
Makes a good point.
DISCLAIMER: The following actually happened, and I take responsibility for injuring and hurting an innocent person.
Understand it was in the 70's in NYC. This was an era of high crime and lawlessness. In 1974 NYC almost became like Detroit and was almost bankrupt.
So I was in the subway at 168th Street in Jamaica Queens, I was counting how many subway tokens I had, and someone approached me from behind and tapped me on the shoulder.
For me it was a matter of free association becoming "Free Assassination," partially a conditioned response from previous episodes of life threatening danger, where the subway system in the 70's was a dangerous place, I was counting money, and I was being surprised by being approached from behind.
So I turned and cold cocked a teenager not much younger than myself. Pretty much I laid him down. "Why did you hit me?" he said.
After the fact I realized that I over reacted, but really under the circumstances in the moment did I do the right thing? Hard to say, even though it was a mistake. I do understand why I did what I did. I can also say that under a similar situation today I really don't know how I would respond.
Not sure how others might of reacted, but research indicates that perhaps 3/4's of the population would of acted differently.
The kid only wanted to know if he was on the correct side for the train to Madhattan, but he made the innocent mistake of approaching someone from behind.
In WWII there was one study that suggested Army soldiers on their first day of combat were being killed at a high rate, and without having fired their weapon. It seems boot camp had inadiquitly had failed to prepare them for real combat. I am sure for some fear froze them, for others it was the inability to think under such duress, and for some it really was about the morality of violence and using lethal force. This study suggested that in WWII only 1/4 of the men in their first day of combat were able to fire their weapon.
In another study it suggests that during the Vietnam War that if new troops on the ground survived the first two weeks of combat that their odds of surviving their tour of duty rose dramatically.
In an analogy to these studies I mentioned I have an experience that supports the data.
I work in a nuclear physics lab: I run, operate and maintain a three and a half million dollar cyclotron (partical beam accelerator). One day at work I told my boss I was running down the block to Citibank to get cash from an ATM, but on my way back to work I saw that my building was evacuated due to a fire alarm, and I took notice that my boss was missing.
I have reason to dislike my boss, basically he is a jerk, but I broke procedure and did not follow my training, and I entered what could be like running into a burning building. When I got to my lab about 70-80 feet undergound which is built like a bunker I found out that the fire was real.
I saw my boss holding a CO2 fire extinguisher frozen right in front of an electrical cabinet that was on fire. Oddly a PhD Radio Chemist and a chemistry technician also stood by frozen. My boss had the same training I had, the fire extinguisher also was marked "safe for electrical fires," but my boss was unable to use his training and in that moment was also unable to read or process any information.
So basically I witnessed three smart highly educated people that were totally overwhelmed and unable to think, react, or process information. IMHO this is what really happens in an emergency.
I am no hero, but I had the sense to grab another CO2 fire extinguisher, pull the safety pin, and told my boss that it is safe to use the CO2 extinguisher and that a second one is right behind him.
I also told the other two bystanders not to leave my boss alone, and directed them that I was going to get the key and turn off the main breaker that was feeding the electrical fire.
So in a real life emergancy I witnessed three people who could not respond like in the WWII study, and only because I had experience with life threatening emergencies in my past that I was the only person able to respond to the stress that froze others.
I have not worn the uniform or shield, but I think I have had similar experiences that were potentially life threatening. I honestly told my boss that the next time I will not risk my life for him. LOL.
BTW the major cause of death among Cyclotron Engineers is electricution. My machine has voltages as high as 50K volts, and currents as high as 500 amps. When at full power and operating it consumes 80K kilowatts, or the equivelent power of 80 thousand hair driers.
Luckily the fire suppression system in my new building was faulty and did not get triggered. It seems the negative air pressure of my vault direct the smoke away from the smoke detectors.
Cal
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Jeeze Calzone..you had it rough...I grew up in midtown Manhattan in the 60's and early 70's...never had a problem w/cops...and even as a kid...when the older Irish cop who directed traffic on 59th and 7th ..found out my bike was stolen..w/o prompting...made sure I had another bike that same week as there was one down at the station...
Sure the streets were tough and I got robbed on occasion..but it is not sheer paranoia like it is today..
I really don't go out much anymore..no more street photography where I am..
I don't want trouble...
Sure the streets were tough and I got robbed on occasion..but it is not sheer paranoia like it is today..
I really don't go out much anymore..no more street photography where I am..
I don't want trouble...
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Emile,
During the Vietnam Era, I looked like the enemy. I was born in 1958, and in the 1960 census there were less than 238K Asians in the U.S. I grew up in the suburbs of Long Island where I really stood out. I had to always be ready for attacks based on racial hatred.
The first thing I learned in kindergarden was how to fight. By third grade I had learned to be good at it.
I have never been robbed other than the break-in to my loft when away visiting my gal's relatives one Christmas.
Cal
thawkins
Well-known
This Leica set up looks at first glimpse like a Lewis machine gun, a World War One infantry weapon.
rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
[Warning: long post with insider perspectives]
Thanks Cal!
I appreciate your kind words. I have been all of the people you mention. Emergency services, law enforcement, and even jobs I cannot talk about. I wasn't going to chime in, but this thread has shown a great amount of thoughtfulness and open-mindedness about the subject.
First. I am not currently in law enforcement. I have worked in law enforcement in the past. I am not currently a firefighter or paramedic, but I worked as such in the past. I am not an emergency services administrator, but I've worked as one in the past. I am a scientist whose lab is less dangerous than a particle accelerator apparently.
When I was younger, I wasn't interested in law enforcement, but did the coursework and training anyway (its a long story). I also wasn't interested in being a firefighter, but... I did want to travel to foreign lands and see the world. I did my POST and fire academy in southern California. My remaining training happened elsewhere. My careers in law enforcement, emergency services, and other service were all "accidental", but I'm glad I did them. I've had an interesting (to say the least) life. My current career is what I most wanted to do in life -- science.
I know about shooting and being shot:
I walk with a painful limp today. I was unarmed and checking up on a situation in a canyon on National Forest lands in southern California. As I wound my way up the canyon, on foot, I approached a bend with a large laurel tree on the side. A heavy set guy stepped from behind the tree. Looked at me. Reached down a pulled a rather long-barreled revolver (funny the details we remember). It was a target revolver with a 10-12 inch barrel and likely in .45 long Colt (in case any of you are interested). I had no time to think. This was the greatest fear I have ever felt in my entire life. I have been in many situations equally dangerous, but there is something about being unable to defend oneself from another human who is intent on ending your life. Obviously, I survived. I ran. Fast. The long barrel didn't help this guy and the only connection was above my left knee. We later found remnants of a methamphetamine "lab" behind the tree. Never found the shooter, but that wasn't my job. Every other time I've been shot at was different somehow. I never had that same fear experience as with the meth lab guy, and I never want to.
Anyway, that's off topic. I've known (and dated) many police officers and other law enforcement folks over the years, at local, state, and federal level. As with any group of people, they vary substantially in personality and "quality". Over the last 30+ years, I hate to say that I have noticed a shift in the number of local-level people that seem disconnected from the concept of law enforcement. Years ago, we built relationships with our community. Why? Because you NEEDED them as partners. Your job would be impossible otherwise. The buzzword for that nowadays is "community policing". I can tell you now that there can be no other kind if you wish to be successful. Someone above mentioned that many recruits are attracted to law enforcement because they crave the power that comes with it. Sadly, that may be a fair assessment of many new youngsters. It bothers me. At state and federal levels, not so much. The professionalism at these levels continues to impress me.
Culture is everything. Its been mentioned in posts above. And it was mentioned that there are "good" officers. Please believe me, there are many, many "good" police officers. But, in line with the trend I noted above, they seem to be the older, more experienced and level-headed guys (and gals), not so much the youngsters. Of course, that could be my perception bias, and I do know of very competent youngsters. Anyway, that culture also varies quite a bit among departments and gov't levels. But I see no pattern. People seem to expect small town departments to be more apt for "corruption" (I use this term very loosely), but not what I've seen. There are some small towns with top-notch professionalism and effective community policing policies that would (and should!) put larger departments to shame. Why? Culture (and luck). I can recall one small town in rural New Mexico with just a few officers. I happened to be speeding through the town one day and "met" one of those guys. Well, despite the deserved ticket, I had an opportunity to take a break with him and was I impressed. Turns out each of the guys (happens to be all guys, but they like gals too) really likes living in this small town. In other words, they want to be where they are, and they are intimate members of their community, and they are happy to be making a decent living that lets them live where they want. Sound familiar? All this fosters a positive environment and you get great police. By the way, plenty of guns in rural New Mexico. Still, I doubt these guys have ever come close to an unintended use of their firearm. I don't know what their training requirements or schedule might be.
Even though I'm trained and "authorized", I don't carry a firearm. After my incident with the meth lab shooter (which was about 27 years ago), I thought I would start, but I quickly began feeling odd about it. My job didn't really require it and I was self conscious. Today, none of my friends and colleagues even think I've held a gun, much less own one or be proficient. I like it that way. Still, I continued with training and certification, but that's about it. I mention the training because it seems to be a point of discussion here. Training does indeed vary a lot among local departments. Some small departments consider a few hours at the range as "training". Others have sophisticated scenario training (which I recommend for the curious). The advanced training is actually quite difficult. I hesitate to put it in writing, but I've made plenty of mistakes, misjudgements, and errors. That's why the training in the first place. I'm confident about my abilities to perform under "emergency" conditions, but I've definitely experienced the "frozen" moments Cal described, and I have been in a lot of "emergency" situations of many different kinds. (Feels odd to think back on it all). One training I don't think I received is how to defuse a situation with a mentally ill person. I did my academies in the late 1980s and it just wasn't a big topic then. Sure, there were plenty of classes on how to deal with the public, and that danced around the specifics of mentally ill, but not quite. I learned how to deal with difficult people on the job as a firefighter/medic. Mostly with people on drugs. Law enforcement is a difficult job, but firefighter/medic seemed harder. I worked in southern California and had the pleasure of seeing it all. I mean, I've seen it all. I also got to deal with nearly every kind of incident you can imagine. Especially once I moved to the mobile command unit for the state. Floods, riots (Rodney King), huge fires, tornados, earthquakes (SF world series quake), etc. Usually I developed and implemented multi-agency communications plans and infrastructure. I mention all this because the thread has touched on the topic of PTSD. I can tell you now that essentially all members of the law enforcement and emergency services community have some level of PTSD. If you know us (friends or family), then you know the rather twisted sense of humor that develops as a coping mechanism. Don't fault them for it. Its a necessary thing. I'm amazed at the resiliency of most members of this community. And it ties back into culture (I'm coming round to it). Like military veterans, cops and firefighters are in a "brotherhood" (we include sisters too). Even today, I continue to feel it. This is both good and bad. Without this strong, safe brotherhood, I think the PTSD and other rigors of the job would crush people. The bad part is the unwritten code of protection. The "Blue Wall" mentioned above is strong. You do not harm your brother (or sister), even when you know they did wrong. Period. For me, during the years I carried a badge, I never received a speeding ticket or anything. The culture we keep coming back to is a complicated thing. In my mind, it seems we should be able to exploit culture for positive change. For example, as mentioned above, if it were possible to recruit and keep quality people, the culture can be a positive force in helping to retain the good people via the effective support it provides. With culture comes a strong sense of pride and duty; if the shapers of this culture demonstrated the kind of behaviour and ethic associated with good law enforcement, the culture would be a great reinforcement. At FBI, despite my core disagreement with some administrators, I see this positive side of culture. The guys and gals I know are highly professional with an appropriate sense of duty and ethic. There's one agent in particular I admire for her ability to balance appropriate and inappropriate. She just has it down.
This post is long enough.. Sorry. Clearly this is something I think about and I'm not in those fields any more. I'm a scientist/statistician. Those careers were just "fun" stuff to do while on the way to becoming a scientist. I also managed to be a photographer and competitive rock climber as well. Sleep? Well yeah, a little.
Thanks Cal!
I appreciate your kind words. I have been all of the people you mention. Emergency services, law enforcement, and even jobs I cannot talk about. I wasn't going to chime in, but this thread has shown a great amount of thoughtfulness and open-mindedness about the subject.
First. I am not currently in law enforcement. I have worked in law enforcement in the past. I am not currently a firefighter or paramedic, but I worked as such in the past. I am not an emergency services administrator, but I've worked as one in the past. I am a scientist whose lab is less dangerous than a particle accelerator apparently.
When I was younger, I wasn't interested in law enforcement, but did the coursework and training anyway (its a long story). I also wasn't interested in being a firefighter, but... I did want to travel to foreign lands and see the world. I did my POST and fire academy in southern California. My remaining training happened elsewhere. My careers in law enforcement, emergency services, and other service were all "accidental", but I'm glad I did them. I've had an interesting (to say the least) life. My current career is what I most wanted to do in life -- science.
I know about shooting and being shot:
I walk with a painful limp today. I was unarmed and checking up on a situation in a canyon on National Forest lands in southern California. As I wound my way up the canyon, on foot, I approached a bend with a large laurel tree on the side. A heavy set guy stepped from behind the tree. Looked at me. Reached down a pulled a rather long-barreled revolver (funny the details we remember). It was a target revolver with a 10-12 inch barrel and likely in .45 long Colt (in case any of you are interested). I had no time to think. This was the greatest fear I have ever felt in my entire life. I have been in many situations equally dangerous, but there is something about being unable to defend oneself from another human who is intent on ending your life. Obviously, I survived. I ran. Fast. The long barrel didn't help this guy and the only connection was above my left knee. We later found remnants of a methamphetamine "lab" behind the tree. Never found the shooter, but that wasn't my job. Every other time I've been shot at was different somehow. I never had that same fear experience as with the meth lab guy, and I never want to.
Anyway, that's off topic. I've known (and dated) many police officers and other law enforcement folks over the years, at local, state, and federal level. As with any group of people, they vary substantially in personality and "quality". Over the last 30+ years, I hate to say that I have noticed a shift in the number of local-level people that seem disconnected from the concept of law enforcement. Years ago, we built relationships with our community. Why? Because you NEEDED them as partners. Your job would be impossible otherwise. The buzzword for that nowadays is "community policing". I can tell you now that there can be no other kind if you wish to be successful. Someone above mentioned that many recruits are attracted to law enforcement because they crave the power that comes with it. Sadly, that may be a fair assessment of many new youngsters. It bothers me. At state and federal levels, not so much. The professionalism at these levels continues to impress me.
Culture is everything. Its been mentioned in posts above. And it was mentioned that there are "good" officers. Please believe me, there are many, many "good" police officers. But, in line with the trend I noted above, they seem to be the older, more experienced and level-headed guys (and gals), not so much the youngsters. Of course, that could be my perception bias, and I do know of very competent youngsters. Anyway, that culture also varies quite a bit among departments and gov't levels. But I see no pattern. People seem to expect small town departments to be more apt for "corruption" (I use this term very loosely), but not what I've seen. There are some small towns with top-notch professionalism and effective community policing policies that would (and should!) put larger departments to shame. Why? Culture (and luck). I can recall one small town in rural New Mexico with just a few officers. I happened to be speeding through the town one day and "met" one of those guys. Well, despite the deserved ticket, I had an opportunity to take a break with him and was I impressed. Turns out each of the guys (happens to be all guys, but they like gals too) really likes living in this small town. In other words, they want to be where they are, and they are intimate members of their community, and they are happy to be making a decent living that lets them live where they want. Sound familiar? All this fosters a positive environment and you get great police. By the way, plenty of guns in rural New Mexico. Still, I doubt these guys have ever come close to an unintended use of their firearm. I don't know what their training requirements or schedule might be.
Even though I'm trained and "authorized", I don't carry a firearm. After my incident with the meth lab shooter (which was about 27 years ago), I thought I would start, but I quickly began feeling odd about it. My job didn't really require it and I was self conscious. Today, none of my friends and colleagues even think I've held a gun, much less own one or be proficient. I like it that way. Still, I continued with training and certification, but that's about it. I mention the training because it seems to be a point of discussion here. Training does indeed vary a lot among local departments. Some small departments consider a few hours at the range as "training". Others have sophisticated scenario training (which I recommend for the curious). The advanced training is actually quite difficult. I hesitate to put it in writing, but I've made plenty of mistakes, misjudgements, and errors. That's why the training in the first place. I'm confident about my abilities to perform under "emergency" conditions, but I've definitely experienced the "frozen" moments Cal described, and I have been in a lot of "emergency" situations of many different kinds. (Feels odd to think back on it all). One training I don't think I received is how to defuse a situation with a mentally ill person. I did my academies in the late 1980s and it just wasn't a big topic then. Sure, there were plenty of classes on how to deal with the public, and that danced around the specifics of mentally ill, but not quite. I learned how to deal with difficult people on the job as a firefighter/medic. Mostly with people on drugs. Law enforcement is a difficult job, but firefighter/medic seemed harder. I worked in southern California and had the pleasure of seeing it all. I mean, I've seen it all. I also got to deal with nearly every kind of incident you can imagine. Especially once I moved to the mobile command unit for the state. Floods, riots (Rodney King), huge fires, tornados, earthquakes (SF world series quake), etc. Usually I developed and implemented multi-agency communications plans and infrastructure. I mention all this because the thread has touched on the topic of PTSD. I can tell you now that essentially all members of the law enforcement and emergency services community have some level of PTSD. If you know us (friends or family), then you know the rather twisted sense of humor that develops as a coping mechanism. Don't fault them for it. Its a necessary thing. I'm amazed at the resiliency of most members of this community. And it ties back into culture (I'm coming round to it). Like military veterans, cops and firefighters are in a "brotherhood" (we include sisters too). Even today, I continue to feel it. This is both good and bad. Without this strong, safe brotherhood, I think the PTSD and other rigors of the job would crush people. The bad part is the unwritten code of protection. The "Blue Wall" mentioned above is strong. You do not harm your brother (or sister), even when you know they did wrong. Period. For me, during the years I carried a badge, I never received a speeding ticket or anything. The culture we keep coming back to is a complicated thing. In my mind, it seems we should be able to exploit culture for positive change. For example, as mentioned above, if it were possible to recruit and keep quality people, the culture can be a positive force in helping to retain the good people via the effective support it provides. With culture comes a strong sense of pride and duty; if the shapers of this culture demonstrated the kind of behaviour and ethic associated with good law enforcement, the culture would be a great reinforcement. At FBI, despite my core disagreement with some administrators, I see this positive side of culture. The guys and gals I know are highly professional with an appropriate sense of duty and ethic. There's one agent in particular I admire for her ability to balance appropriate and inappropriate. She just has it down.
This post is long enough.. Sorry. Clearly this is something I think about and I'm not in those fields any more. I'm a scientist/statistician. Those careers were just "fun" stuff to do while on the way to becoming a scientist. I also managed to be a photographer and competitive rock climber as well. Sleep? Well yeah, a little.
rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
When I was in middle school. I got picked on for having non-white friends. Mostly hispanic (Mexican), but also an Asian friend too. I never learned how to fight very well, but after standing up to the bullies a few times, they lost interest. They don't like it when you don't cower and run. Perhaps it takes the fun out of being a bully? I wouldn't know...
BillBingham2
Registered User
There are LEOs that should not be in that line of work. There are also LOTS of great people who are in that line. Sadly, some are leaving due to changes in benefits/pay.
B2 (;->
B2 (;->
emraphoto
Mentor
amen to all of this.
what frightens me more though is the 'don't give the cops a reason to shoot you' crowd. serve up the rights of millions of people on a platter without a second thought.
cops have tough jobs, no doubt but you NEVER want to cease being the oversight of them as a voting citizen. when security services of any kind start getting away with murder guess what they start doing a lot of?
BillBingham2
Registered User
You know, I was thinking about this and I have to disagree. They have already spend a lot of money training Deputy Shaw, he needs to be reassigned. Let's send him to train recruits on how not to make the same mistake that he made.
They are spending a more on him with the investigation.
It was a mistake, not malicious as we have seen so often these days. He has to earn the right to carry, perhaps a few years out.
Let's leverage what we can and help him recover and teach others to be better.
B2 (;->
pepeguitarra
Well-known
Having worked in law enforcement many moons ago....
Having worked in law enforcement many moons ago....
on temporarily basis, and having several friends who retired after a long life of service in police forces, I can tell you that there are two kind of people who enter into the police: 1) the one who wants to make sure things are right, people do the right thing, and are usually good people, intelectuales smart, also street smart, gentle, nice, and use force only when needed to stop a bad action; the other 2) the ones who if not accepted into the police force, end up on the criminal path. These ones are usually muscle tonic, abusers, join the Force to subdue others and demonstrate their power. These are the ones that often cross the fine blue line that separate the good from the bad. Unfortunately, there are more of the second class wearing a uniform.
The unions are usually managed by the second type and there is no way the good cops are going to say or testify against another cop. They not only can make their life miserable, they can actually murder them in many ways. District attorneys work with the police, and very seldom they will prosecute a cop, because they will not work with them anymore. I have been around the US, and I can tell you some specificities from every area. For example a cop in the South is very different from the cop in California.
Having worked in law enforcement many moons ago....
on temporarily basis, and having several friends who retired after a long life of service in police forces, I can tell you that there are two kind of people who enter into the police: 1) the one who wants to make sure things are right, people do the right thing, and are usually good people, intelectuales smart, also street smart, gentle, nice, and use force only when needed to stop a bad action; the other 2) the ones who if not accepted into the police force, end up on the criminal path. These ones are usually muscle tonic, abusers, join the Force to subdue others and demonstrate their power. These are the ones that often cross the fine blue line that separate the good from the bad. Unfortunately, there are more of the second class wearing a uniform.
The unions are usually managed by the second type and there is no way the good cops are going to say or testify against another cop. They not only can make their life miserable, they can actually murder them in many ways. District attorneys work with the police, and very seldom they will prosecute a cop, because they will not work with them anymore. I have been around the US, and I can tell you some specificities from every area. For example a cop in the South is very different from the cop in California.
pepeguitarra
Well-known
sepiareverb
genius and moron
The reality (from what i have read about it) is that far fewer police officers are shot at that civilians. And the US is way outside the realm of normal in how police/civilian interactions go down. lethal force is all too often used in this country. Just last week five officers fired on a guy simultaneously here in VT.
seany65
Well-known
I think part of the problem may be in the way officers are taught to see all members of the public as 'potential terrorists' and not just mostly 'ordinary people' with a few 'baddies' in there somewhere.
Hence an officer can end up shooting a friend.
This shift has come in the wake of 911 and the bombings etc. since then.
Hence an officer can end up shooting a friend.
This shift has come in the wake of 911 and the bombings etc. since then.
narsuitus
Well-known
Thanks for sharing.