OK Nikon management, where is Nikon's version of the best mirrorless camera?
What is the problem? Why is that camera not already on dealer shelves?
How hard can it be for Nikon to put this together right insead of wasting corporate time and money on foolish new products that don't sell?
1) Sony's latest and best FF sensor
2) modify sensor so it will perform well with rangefinder lenses
3) 100% compatibility with Nikon's wonderful flash system
4) 100% compatibility with all Nikon F lenses including AF via adapter
5) New wide throat G mount (G comes after F)
6) Rotating extendable super hi res LCD panel
7) Higher resolution EVF than any other camera
8) built in wifi to smart phones, pads, computers
Nikon fans are waiting - get on it already!
What is the problem? Why is that camera not already on dealer shelves?
How hard can it be for Nikon to put this together right insead of wasting corporate time and money on foolish new products that don't sell?
1) Sony's latest and best FF sensor
2) modify sensor so it will perform well with rangefinder lenses
3) 100% compatibility with Nikon's wonderful flash system
4) 100% compatibility with all Nikon F lenses including AF via adapter
5) New wide throat G mount (G comes after F)
6) Rotating extendable super hi res LCD panel
7) Higher resolution EVF than any other camera
8) built in wifi to smart phones, pads, computers
Nikon fans are waiting - get on it already!
Larry Cloetta
Mentor
Exactly.
However, the fact that they haven't done this already indicates that those in management believe that the DL things and the Go Pro clone things made more sense. That's what's scary.
However, the fact that they haven't done this already indicates that those in management believe that the DL things and the Go Pro clone things made more sense. That's what's scary.
michaelwj
----------------
It will not be all you dream of...
1) Most likely
2) Never. Nikon want you to only use their lenses. They often update things to make 3rd party lenses incompatible.
3) has to happen
4) has to happen
5) should happen, but it won't be G, Sony already have G lenses... if it happens it'll take a long time to get what you want, if al all (DX primes?)
6) maybe
7) unlikely at the price you want to pay (Leica SL anyone?)
8) hilarious! This is Nikon!
I don't think Nikon should bring a FF mirrorless to market. Make it a DX and make it small and fast.
1) Most likely
2) Never. Nikon want you to only use their lenses. They often update things to make 3rd party lenses incompatible.
3) has to happen
4) has to happen
5) should happen, but it won't be G, Sony already have G lenses... if it happens it'll take a long time to get what you want, if al all (DX primes?)
6) maybe
7) unlikely at the price you want to pay (Leica SL anyone?)
8) hilarious! This is Nikon!
I don't think Nikon should bring a FF mirrorless to market. Make it a DX and make it small and fast.
TXForester
Well-known
Judging by m4/3 cameras, AF via an adapter may be slower than AF of system lenses. My 4/3 lenses are dogs on my m4/3 cameras. The AF via an adapter will probably be useless for moving subjects but ok for still subjects.
Ronald M
Mentor
Whole thing is a BS concept.
I would like to see a FF digi with screen like Nikon F interchangeable with one for AF lenses. Oh wait that is a DF2.
They need to rationalize the product line and eliminate all those that do what cell phones do. Either that or put phones in the cameras.
Nikon needs to understand people are not buying stuff anymore. All the stuff we need we have. Economy is crap. Major retailers are looking at bankruptcy as I saw on Fox Business today. Although Amazon is doing well.
Chicago has driven retail shoppers from city center, driven small business from their territory ( I know of several ), & so go the jobs. What is left is drug dealers and welfare and a few rich who have what they need.
Dont cha understand leaders ? Roll with what you have until things get better.
I would like to see a FF digi with screen like Nikon F interchangeable with one for AF lenses. Oh wait that is a DF2.
They need to rationalize the product line and eliminate all those that do what cell phones do. Either that or put phones in the cameras.
Nikon needs to understand people are not buying stuff anymore. All the stuff we need we have. Economy is crap. Major retailers are looking at bankruptcy as I saw on Fox Business today. Although Amazon is doing well.
Chicago has driven retail shoppers from city center, driven small business from their territory ( I know of several ), & so go the jobs. What is left is drug dealers and welfare and a few rich who have what they need.
Dont cha understand leaders ? Roll with what you have until things get better.
View Range
Well-known
I vote for a super hi-res / very high refresh rate EVF, not because I want a mirrorless camera, but because the D5 really needs an EVF to put onto the accessory shoe so that the video mode becomes useful for other than static subjects.
FrozenInTime
Well-known
If Nikon want my money, they should make cameras that have a strong resonance with their history ( taking a leaf out of Leica's book )
Update the Coolpix A concept ( APS-C Ricoh GR copy ) with 24Mpixel and 4k video:
add a built in EVF and selfie screen, 28/2 lens ( 40mm view) and put it in a retro body so it looks like a small fixed lens clone of the Black Nikon SP ( i.e. their X100 )
Take the same sensor and electronics with a 18/2 and make it survive like a modern day Nikonos V
Take the same sensor and electronics with a 18/2.8 and make as thin and elegant as possible.
Take the same electronics and a sensor with PDAF cells and make a general market EVIL mirrorless system that works with adapted DSLR lenses.
Stick with it - keep evolving generation after generation until the speed and AF is as good as a DSLR.
Update the Coolpix A concept ( APS-C Ricoh GR copy ) with 24Mpixel and 4k video:
add a built in EVF and selfie screen, 28/2 lens ( 40mm view) and put it in a retro body so it looks like a small fixed lens clone of the Black Nikon SP ( i.e. their X100 )
Take the same sensor and electronics with a 18/2 and make it survive like a modern day Nikonos V
Take the same sensor and electronics with a 18/2.8 and make as thin and elegant as possible.
Take the same electronics and a sensor with PDAF cells and make a general market EVIL mirrorless system that works with adapted DSLR lenses.
Stick with it - keep evolving generation after generation until the speed and AF is as good as a DSLR.
Contarama
Well-known
The Nikon corporate answer is simple - it will cut into sales of our DSLRs. LMAO
I'm taking an entry level photography course at the local camera store to review basics and learn a few things I am still sketchy on. 20 in our class. 18 Canons. 1 Nikon hybrid camera. My Df the only full frame in the class besides the instructor's camera (Nikon btw). First night made me so sad I bought two F2's and enrolled for the next B&W develop and print class.
So Df and F2 for me. The mirrorless Nikon is like the D400 in my books. I'll never buy another camera...other than a M2 or M240 and at that point I'll turn my nose up to all other cameras.
I'm taking an entry level photography course at the local camera store to review basics and learn a few things I am still sketchy on. 20 in our class. 18 Canons. 1 Nikon hybrid camera. My Df the only full frame in the class besides the instructor's camera (Nikon btw). First night made me so sad I bought two F2's and enrolled for the next B&W develop and print class.
So Df and F2 for me. The mirrorless Nikon is like the D400 in my books. I'll never buy another camera...other than a M2 or M240 and at that point I'll turn my nose up to all other cameras.
Frontman
Well-known
Are those who are making mirrorless cameras earning a profit from them? Judging by the recent sales of digital cameras, probably not. As much as I love that companies are making these cameras, if they are losing money with them, Nikon may be wise to stay out of the market.
In the past Nikon resurrected the S3 and SP, which for those of us who appreciate classic cameras was amazing. But I have no doubt that Nikon lost a fair amount of money on these projects. They are not going to invest in a new system when the odds of earning a positive return are not possible, and if they do, we may appreciate it, but it does little good for Nikon and it's investors.
In the past Nikon resurrected the S3 and SP, which for those of us who appreciate classic cameras was amazing. But I have no doubt that Nikon lost a fair amount of money on these projects. They are not going to invest in a new system when the odds of earning a positive return are not possible, and if they do, we may appreciate it, but it does little good for Nikon and it's investors.
hap
Well-known
You know.....I think you have a point. perhaps it's tortoise and hare with Nikon. Hard to imagine themselves engineering themselves out of business. Lloyd Chambers , who praises his D810 to high heaven, is clamoring for just a few significant improvments......starting with a class leading EVF. However, I read on posts here that people get headaches from EVF.....is that really the case this is a significant problem?
kuzano
Mentor
Hmmm. Last I heard isn't Nikon going Teat's Up?
gavinlg
Mentor
Couldn't agree more with the original post. Nikon needs to make a stonking camera that brings people to the brand if it wants to stay relevant. The time for SLRs is running out.
If nikon made a digital SP, and did it right people would flock. If nikon made a full frame 35mm f2.8 35ti with the analog gauges, people would flock. If nikon remade the DF mirrorless in its own dedicated all metal body with a giant EVF, made it to look like an f3 or an fm2, people would flock.
If nikon made a digital SP, and did it right people would flock. If nikon made a full frame 35mm f2.8 35ti with the analog gauges, people would flock. If nikon remade the DF mirrorless in its own dedicated all metal body with a giant EVF, made it to look like an f3 or an fm2, people would flock.
aizan
Mentor
i wish nikon would take a few hints from what other companies have made and go one step further.
imagine a sony rx100 with a fixed, built-in rangefinder-style evf (no pop-up unit), a 24-100mm f/2 lens, and more of a grip.
imagine a sony rx1 with an evf and focusing tab like the leica q.
imagine a ricoh gr with an evf.
imagine a fuji x100f with a focusing tab like the leica q.
when nikon comes to its senses, it'll probably do something boring like making a half-hearted aps-c mirrorless system. just like canon.
imagine a sony rx100 with a fixed, built-in rangefinder-style evf (no pop-up unit), a 24-100mm f/2 lens, and more of a grip.
imagine a sony rx1 with an evf and focusing tab like the leica q.
imagine a ricoh gr with an evf.
imagine a fuji x100f with a focusing tab like the leica q.
when nikon comes to its senses, it'll probably do something boring like making a half-hearted aps-c mirrorless system. just like canon.
Skiff
Well-known
That are indeed the most important points.
So far the DSLM market has not been a success story for the manufacturers in economic terms. Several manufacturers had losses, some get +/- 0 and the best performers only made very small profits.
The DSLR market is much more profitable! Not surprising, because it is much bigger and has much less competition.
No matter whether Nikon would enter the DSLM market with a FF or APS-C system, huge investments are needed. And Nikon has to fight against Sony, Olympus, Panasonic, Canon, Fujifilm, Leica, Sigma. Lots of established competition.
Could Nikon get a ROI under such difficult circumstances?
The danger of loosing lots of money is big.
Loosing money would make Nikon's situation even worse.
willie_901
Mentor
Yup. Nikon missed the boat. The boat they did sail (J1, V1 etc) is becalmed.
Vobluda
Well-known
Who is Nikon in 2017?
The struggle is real, industry revenues and profits are down, will Nikon weather the storm of the changing market?
Things are likely to get worse before they get better.
Things are likely to get worse before they get better.
Larry Cloetta
Mentor
Must admit I have been a little surprised at some of the comments indicating that Nikon, in order to survive, should actually stay out of the mirrorless market. I had been under the impression that no one still believed there was any significant, market dominating, future for SLR bodies, though there might always be a niche. Only time will tell, but the slow response of Nikon management to changes in camera paradigms seems problematic to me. It seems troublingly reminiscent of Graflex management advocating "stay the course, we have the pro market covered", which they did.
Here is the conclusion of a recent analysis, with a link to the full article to follow. People can disagree, but the "writing is on the wall", seems to me.
"In summary, I would like to say that DSLRs simply have no way to compete with mirrorless in the future. I am not saying that everyone will be switching to smaller and lighter mirrorless cameras soon – no, we are still far from that point. However, it simply does not make sense for manufacturers like Nikon and Canon to continue investing into making DSLRs better, when the technology advantage is clearly with mirrorless."
https://photographylife.com/mirrorless-vs-dslr
The article covers, I think, all the salient technological points relating to SLR bodies vs. mirrorless bodies now and going forward. It also includes some specific points related to Nikon. It is a long article, but I would recommend reading it and then having a long, unemotional, think about the points raised, to anyone who is sincerely interested in the topic.
Here is the conclusion of a recent analysis, with a link to the full article to follow. People can disagree, but the "writing is on the wall", seems to me.
"In summary, I would like to say that DSLRs simply have no way to compete with mirrorless in the future. I am not saying that everyone will be switching to smaller and lighter mirrorless cameras soon – no, we are still far from that point. However, it simply does not make sense for manufacturers like Nikon and Canon to continue investing into making DSLRs better, when the technology advantage is clearly with mirrorless."
https://photographylife.com/mirrorless-vs-dslr
The article covers, I think, all the salient technological points relating to SLR bodies vs. mirrorless bodies now and going forward. It also includes some specific points related to Nikon. It is a long article, but I would recommend reading it and then having a long, unemotional, think about the points raised, to anyone who is sincerely interested in the topic.
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nikonhswebmaster
reluctant moderator
Maybe, but the list of shortcomings is much more important than the article makes out...
HHPhoto
Well-known
That is what the DSLM marketing people say. For more than a decade now.
But the reality is different:
In 2016 the ILC market share for DSLRs was 72.5 %, for DSLM only 27.5%.
I doubt that DSLM will have a bigger market share in the future compared to DSLRs. I am convinced DSLRs will have above 60% market share in the long run.
Very difficult decision for Nikon: The DSLM market is relative small, and has lots of competition (much more than in the DSLR market). Even the better performers in the DSLM market are only selling some 100k units p.a.. That is not very much.
Especially considering the big investments, which got into R&D.
So could Nikon really get their R&D money back?
It is at least questionable......
Entering a new market generally make only sense if a significant profit can be made.
The main reason for photographers to go for DSLM is that they want a bit more compact and lighter system.
That works for m4/3 and APS-C mirrorless systems, but not so much for FF mirorless. In FF the lenses have the same size, and as the bodies need much more power because of the power consuming EVF you have to carry spare batteries with you which compensates the little advantage of the smaller body.
If you look how compact and light a Nikon 3400 / 5600 / 7200 APS-C DSLR is (for my hands even a bit too small), maybe improving that route could be an alternative strategy:
- more Nikon DX lenses in general
- more small DX prime lenses
- additionally some "pancake designed" fixed primes (these would even be smaller and lighter than the current APS-C mirrorless lenses).
The difference in size and weight between such a Nikon DX camera+lenses kit and a Fujifilm XT-2 camera and lenses kit is negligible.
And the Nikon kit is much cheaper for the photographer.
And is nevertheless more profitable for Nikon (much lower investment costs).
And in parallel:
Nikon should have a look at a much bigger market than DSLM:
Instax instant film photography. It is an open system. And Fuji alone sold about 6.5 million cameras in 2016 (all DSLM companies together only sold 3.13 million cameras).
This market in increasing, the DSLM market decreased in the last years.
There is much room for better cameras in instant photography. And the R&D for such a camera is much much smaller than for a DSLM line.
Sometimes you have to think "out of the box".
Cheers, Jan