tunalegs
Pretended Artist
5mph bumpers? Safety glass? Seatbelts? Airbags? Collapsible steering columns? Not to say anything of licenses and registration existing in the first place, people having to demonstrate at least some proficiency at using a car in order to own and operate one.
It's a bit disingenuous to suggest that cars are dangerous but nobody cares and nobody does anything about it. Over the past 30 years regulations have made cars much safer than they used to be.
See above. Lots of people complain, lots of people have lobbied, lots of changes have been made and continue to be made. Our cars are safer because of it. It certainly would not have happened if everybody just rolled over and said "well if people don't die in cars, they'll die on bicycles and ships!".
Not that I think this is a joking matter, but it's hard to type with a straight face when thinking about some of these ideas.I think it was going well and respectfully until a couple of people came in spouting non-sequiturs and acting rudely to everybody else in the thread. But hopefully this thread may continue in a respectful and open manner even so.
Although if by magic every gun was swapped for a camera one day, I don't think anybody here could say the world would be worse for it. :angel:
Jubb Jubb
Well-known
And it's sad because the majority of opinions expressed here show that these events are bound to happen again and again...
Amending the Constitution is not simply a matter of the president getting backing. It's a lot more complicated than that.
Jubb Jubb
Well-known
Yes I understand that, but the mentality shown here suggests not many people even considerate it a problem or want to support it
pakeha
Well-known
Well with all due respect you are happy for your culture to be exported all over the world.We put up with it,so you can man up and deal with a little critisism , and remember that being offended is nothing more than whining.
Your culture has spent decades telling the rest of us how superior it is - or was perhaps. Not all of us have been taken in by the hype.
jtm6
Well-known
I've never heard of anyone on the left described as gun-loving.
Frontman
Well-known
There are 200,000,000 guns in America. If guns were made illegal, and 2/3 of these guns were turned in, that would still leave a staggering amount left, and those which remained would be left primarily in the hands of criminals.
In America people are not subjects, or simply members of society, they are citizens with rights, and a surprising amount of power and authority. If I as a citizen witness a crime, I have the power and authority to arrest And detain the criminal myself. If I see a police officer or soldier commit a crime, I have the same authority to arrest and detain them. Where else in the world do preople have such rights?
Guns are not a problem, cars are not a problem, drugs are not a problem, people are problems. A gun is an inert instrument incapable of operating itself, just as a car is. It takes a hand under the instruction of a mind to operate these devices. In America we trust people to make the right decisions, freedom comes with a great amount of personal responsibility. If you want an absolutely safe society, you can imprison everyone in rubber rooms, regulate their diet, force them to exercise regularly, and force them to eat with their fingers. But even with all these measures, people will still find a way to harm each other. There would be far less violence, and people might live longer lives, but personally, I would prefer living in the current system.
I now live in Japan, where the guns have been illegal for generations, and where crimes are strictly punished, yet there are stories of murders in the papers every day. Despite a ban on weapons, guns are routinely used in crimes, even the mayor of Nagasaki was killed with a gun not so long ago. The lack of guns simply means people use knives, rope, poison, or blunt objects to kill.
One must remember that in America, the second amendment is written with the same ink and on the same paper as the other amendments, and if it can be struck down or removed, so can the other amendments. As for "a well regulated militia" this is the most misunderstood part of the amendment. Who exactly does the regulating of the militia or military? It is not the president, courts, or congress, but the people themselves. The militia or military is regulated by a powerful citizenry, who's power rests partly in arms. The supreme court understood this, and affirmed that the second amendment is an individual right.
One can argue the America system is broken, but it is not, it is working as it should. Those who would argue otherwise should travel to other parts of the world and see how most of the world lives. America is not a new country, but it now has the oldest unchanged government in the world. There is no such thing as a perfect society, and I have lived in enough countries to know that. You have to take the bad with the good, however painful it may sometimes be. By reducing the bad, you have the unintended consequence of reducing the good as well.
I'll take America as it is, the good, bad, and the ugly, over anywhere else.
jtm6
Well-known
Perhaps, but you can never take away all the weapons. If there is a will, there is a way.
Jubb Jubb
Well-known
You have to agree though that it would make a massive difference if guns were out of the equation.
Frontman
Well-known
It would make no difference at all. Guns kill about 12000 people a year in America. Most of those are suicides, the rest are police shootings, self defense, and murders. Considering a population of 300,000,000, and a number of guns equivalent to 2/3 of that, the amount of gun crime is negligible at best.
Remarkable, isn't it? But to listen to the news and politicians you would think the streets were running with blood under a hail of bullets fired from automatic guns.
tunalegs
Pretended Artist
A bit over half of those deaths are suicides, true, but about 40% of them are murders. Self defense and police shootings account for a smidgeon, maybe even less than accidental shootings - if you count accidents not resulting in deaths, you pile on another 15,000 shootings to the figure.
And apparently, according to a number of sources gun injuries and death outpace auto injuries and death in a few states.
jtm6
Well-known
Please cite sources. Here's one I came across recently (here probably):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list
Number of homicides by firearm: 9146
Jubb Jubb
Well-known
@Frontman - you can make an arrest in Australia. it's called a citizens arrest, it's not just in America. Here in Australia we are also citizens with rights, the right to feel safe as guns have been taken off the streets.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2012/12/what-us-can-learn-australia-about-gun-control
It doesn't matter if a death is by suicide, it is still a death by a firearm.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2012/12/what-us-can-learn-australia-about-gun-control
It doesn't matter if a death is by suicide, it is still a death by a firearm.
Frontman
Well-known
Yes, but ironically enough, gun crime in America seems to be worst in those places where owning guns is illegal. And, you have to consider that in most cases, guns used in self defense situations are not fired, and no one is shot, the sight of the gun is enough to end the altercation. Even criminals are smart enough to run away when a gun is pointed at them, and most non-criminals are reluctant to shoot someone else, even in self defense.
And, even in the worst case estimates of gun violence, the amount of violence remains quite small considering the size of the population, and the number of guns in circulation. Also, the amount of gun violence is continuing a downward trend, despite ever-increasing numbers of guns.
Jubb Jubb
Well-known
Thanks Range-rover.
I hope you aren't directly affected by the events of last week.
Unfortunately i think nothing will ever change over there.
tunalegs
Pretended Artist
I'll have to be cynical, as it seems a bit weird to judge a death rate per gun owned, instead of gun deaths per capita.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc.../crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls
In 2010 there were 8,775 murders committed with firearms in the U.S., as compared to about 50 in the UK. Or - get this - eleven in Japan: http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/ In 2006 there were only two shooting deaths there.
Per capita the U.S. has more gun deaths than any other industrialized country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Edit: this article provides an interesting visual comparison that considers per capita and guns owned http://www.businessinsider.com/shooting-gun-laws-2012-12
E__WOK
Well-known
Ok, take all the guns away. If he had a knife, should I knife it out with him?
If he attacked me with his fists, I should go fist to fist?
I'm a small guy and will need every advantage I can get.
E__WOK
Well-known
E__WOK
Well-known
Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security.
E__WOK
Well-known
You seem to have mistaken my idea that gun owners should be at least a tad responsible, and tad respectful of other people's property and lives, as saying that guns and hunting are inherently evil. Very funny.
Replace gun with cars or any other inanimate object and get back to me.
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