HHPhoto
Well-known
Trying to pressure Cosina to make digital cameras is about the same as trying to pressure Tokina or Tamron to make digital cameras.
All three have the same experience in making digital cameras:
None.
Fortunately Cosina is lead by competent and realistic people.
And not by naive dreamers.
Cheers, Jan
All three have the same experience in making digital cameras:
None.
Fortunately Cosina is lead by competent and realistic people.
And not by naive dreamers.
Cheers, Jan
Generalization at best.
Wait, your comparison isn't so bad after all:
When some ask Cosina to build the «digital Bessa», then should Yamaha start to build the electronic Bösendorfer?
SHUDDER!
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
Radical, you need to look at a new Porsche.
It's like an airplane cockpit, they even give you a little TV in the middle!
I am a car man, I look at them all the time. If Stuttgart was building no-frills cars, they'll be out of business. I am afraid that may happen to lots of Photo Companies if they don't innovate and get out of the slump.
No one makes money by building things made in 1950s
But I do get your drift, I guess most of you don't get mine.
Cosina hasn't made a camera of their own since they discontinued the R series, they do have the ability of making cameras. It's not a big deal slapping a sensor in one, many companies have done, Cosina did it, they can partner with someone and easily do it.
I think they should, that's my opinion, they need to innovate. They will not survive by selling lenses.
Now that I said my last word, have a go at it you all.
Kiu
It's like an airplane cockpit, they even give you a little TV in the middle!
I am a car man, I look at them all the time. If Stuttgart was building no-frills cars, they'll be out of business. I am afraid that may happen to lots of Photo Companies if they don't innovate and get out of the slump.
No one makes money by building things made in 1950s
But I do get your drift, I guess most of you don't get mine.
Cosina hasn't made a camera of their own since they discontinued the R series, they do have the ability of making cameras. It's not a big deal slapping a sensor in one, many companies have done, Cosina did it, they can partner with someone and easily do it.
I think they should, that's my opinion, they need to innovate. They will not survive by selling lenses.
Now that I said my last word, have a go at it you all.
Kiu
Well, there are e.g. the Bösendorfer I mentioned above, and many other pianos, or generally all serious music instruments — many of them (violins, trumpets, harps, etc. etc.) are built more like the 1850s, 1750s, 1650s, and they're are still fully capable, and their makers prosper and are financially healthy
And the same applies to architecture: if you want a sustainable dwelling, you build it like in the 19th or even an earlier century
HHPhoto
Well-known
Sorry, that is nonsense.
When trains and cars were invented, all "experts" said that will be the end for horses.
Today in Germany are living much more horses than in the 19.th century. Its a big, very profitable business.
Because of the medieval events and countless groups we have even a bigger production of swords, chain armours etc. today than in the Middle Age.
Even new tournaments and national championships for knights are taking place.
No, as explained to you here several times by lots of members including Stephen Gandy, Cosina did not do that. Epson did it. Cosina only made the camera body as an OEM supplier. All digital was made by Epson. And Epson left this business years ago.
And there are no other possible "partners" who would do that, because the only who have the technology are already on the market with their own products. No one wants to compete with himself.
Well, entering
- a declining market
- with no own capabilities in that area
- with lots of very big, established, very competent competitors
- with profitability problems even at the strongest players in the market
- offering a product which most probably can only be worse than the strong competition
has absolutely nothing to do with innovation.
That is just a plan to damage or to ruin your profitable core business.
An innovation would be a better (higher end) camera for Instax film:
- huge and increasing market
- unique product, no competition
- only relative small investment needed, all the needed technolgy is already in-house.
Despite the challenging market they have so far survived by producing film cameras (they are still producing the FM-10 for Nikon) and lenses.
Lots of digital OEM manufacturers and even big companies like Epson, Casio, Samsung had to leave the digital camera production.
Cheers, Jan
But it is still Instax. It's the film equivalent of a cell phone snap (generally speaking). I pretty sure most here are more interested in a roll film uptick that is supported by roll film cameras. Right now, Kodak is going to make Ektachrome again... but that was mostly supported by the movie industry demanding it and not still photography. Using Instax to support a huge film resurgence is sloppy at best. We should be happy that there are new players in the roll film world and that it will continue to exist. But there seem to be a few on these threads that think that these upticks in film manufacturing is signalling a huge return to film for still photography and that digital cameras will cease to exist. Both will continue to exist.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
We have Fuji Instax at almost every store. Collecting dust. Never seen people buying film packs and have seen people using it maybe twice. Discounts are now offered and it has entered liquidation stores.
Skiff
Well-known
Anecdotes are no evidence. I have a big camera store here locally. But I've never seen someone there buying a digital camera.
But of course I would never draw the conclusion from that that no one is buying digital cameras.
Fujfilm knows the sales numbers of Instax better than everyone else. They have increased both Instax film production and camera production.
They have introduced new camera models.
They are introducing new films. Last year the new BW film, this year the new square format film.
They would not do that without a strong increasing demand.
I am visiting every time the biggest photo fair in the world, the Photokina.
Last year the Nikon and Canon booths were quite empty, and the Fuji Instax booth was totally crowded with young photographers. Fuji did some events there: So much people wanted to participate that there had been waiting times for more than one hour.
Skiff
Well-known
No, there is much more to it.
Exactly that is already there. The prices for several good used film cameras are increasing. Hasselblads e.g. are now going for 2-3x the prices of some years ago.
Prices for Contax 645 are almost insane. Prices for Nikon FM3A, FM2, FE2, Leica R6.2 also have gone up.
And film manufacturers are reporting increasing demand.
Wrong. The demand for photo film played a decisive role in this decision. Especially the very strong demand from Germany (Kodak sold more than 60% of their Ektachrome production to Germany).
No, because by Instax millions of new, young users are getting in contact with film. And lots of them are discovering the medium further and try standard film as well.
Wrong. No one is saying that. Only you are insinuating that to others. You should stop that, it is bad discussion style.
mpaniagua
Newby photographer
On my side, I practically abandoned film about 4 years about. Lately, I've bough FP4+,HP5+,expired Trix and Plus-X, Kentmere and Delta 100. So yeah, I think film sales are increasing . Don't really think it will reach the volumes prior to digital, but demand is rising nonetheless. Only reason it wouldn't reach mainstream volumes is because of practical issues and because, today, contrary to when film was mainstream, there are options to film (cell phone, digital cameras, Instax, etc.).
About Bessa digital I don't honestly think it would come to be, because, like said before, Cosina doesn't have the resources to make it. It was pretty different with the R and T series because they already had most of the design for the camera (shutter, light meter, etc. where taken from SLR cameras).
Making a Digital Cameras isn't really just sticking a sensor in a body. It requires calculation, design and resources that Cosina simply doesn't have. That aside to the fact that digital market is contracting.
On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Cosina came out with another series of film Bessas. Film market, even if niche, is increasing. I wouldn't mind a Bessa with both shutter and aperture priority
Regards.
. Don't really think it will reach the volumes prior to digital, but demand is rising nonetheless. Only reason it wouldn't reach mainstream volumes is because of practical issues and because, today, contrary to when film was mainstream, there are options to film (cell phone, digital cameras, Instax, etc.).About Bessa digital I don't honestly think it would come to be, because, like said before, Cosina doesn't have the resources to make it. It was pretty different with the R and T series because they already had most of the design for the camera (shutter, light meter, etc. where taken from SLR cameras).
Making a Digital Cameras isn't really just sticking a sensor in a body. It requires calculation, design and resources that Cosina simply doesn't have. That aside to the fact that digital market is contracting.
On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Cosina came out with another series of film Bessas. Film market, even if niche, is increasing. I wouldn't mind a Bessa with both shutter and aperture priority
Regards.
c.poulton
Well-known
On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if Cosina came out with another series of film Bessas. Film market, even if niche, is increasing. I wouldn't mind a Bessa with both shutter and aperture priority
Regards.
Let's turn this thread on it's head:
"Where is the (next) Bessa Film Camera"?
willie_901
Mentor
Let's turn this thread on it's head:
"Where is the (next) Bessa Film Camera"?
It's in someone's dreams.
Actually, since they were prepared to build a Contax S2, they're also basically prepared to build a Leica R6.4 (my dream
), or: a new Bessa, of course
willie_901
Mentor
This is irrelevant at best.
Do you really believe trains and cars have not replaced horses as the primary mode of transportation?
The information we need is the ratio of people-to-horses for the 19th century and today. We need to know the percent of GNP spent on horse for transportation in the 19th century compared to the what's spent today on equestrian hobbies. The costs have to be normalized
Of course, the equestrian business is profitable. Meeting the needs of hobbyists can be lucrative. Personally I think it's wonderful people enjoy equestrian activities. This doesn't mean car companies will start horse-breeding farms.
An identical approach regarding film and film cameras applies. Pick any decade you'd like and do a proper normalized analysis.
I'm not going to stop anything because I've done nothing wrong. I'm not the one posting "the sky is falling" threads about digital all of the time nor do I disparage film ever. Film is this medium's history and I've used plenty of it myself. My favorite photographers from the past (and sometimes present) have used film. I just do not see the HUGE resurgence that others see based on anecdotal evidence. Honestly, I hope both film and digital thrive and I see no reason they can't.
As you've probably seen, after my first car comparison, I introduced the classical music instrument comparison. I'd like you to argue against this one, please
HHPhoto
Well-known
No, not at all, because I've just referred to KIU's statement that you cannot make money with products which were invented some time ago.
Of course you can make money (even lots of it) with products which were invented some time ago.
To demonstrate just that I have simply given some examples.
Cheers, Jan
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Awesome! Here is another "anecdote" for you. I'm living at the edge of the fourth largest city in North America and here is only one store which I would call as big camera store for entire region, which is Great Toronto Area.
I'm drawing conclusion by how Fuji Instax cameras and else looks at every local store which is shelving it. It is usually in less accessible corner and slightly tacky due to the old dust covering it. "Sale", "off" labels are also emerging.
Photo exhibition is good thing to visit. But, could you, please, tell me which region of the world is full of young people taking it on Instax. Canada has next to none. I see regularly young ones with cameras on the streets. Mostly they walk with DSLRs and some with mirrorless. But I have seen only twice with Instax so far.
traveler_101
American abroad
Aren't you guys arguing over different markets - as in mass versus niche? Mass markets are made by a cycle that begins with technological innovation, proceeds through volume production and is followed by cost reduction. Niche markets are quite variable, aim at "aesthetic consumption" and often recycle older technologies - as in vinyl (records) and film. Personally I am not a great fan of mass market products all that much - though I use them (when I rent a car or buy a micro four thirds camera, for instance) - but in terms of taste I like aesthetic consumption - esp. if I can afford it. On the other hand, analytically speaking, could it be that we are now seeing with mirrorless another cycle of technological innovation that will lead to a very different mass camera market in the future?