willie_901
Mentor
Yeah, but they are a small fraction of millions who bought Instax cameras. Once again, they are a niche... a niche of creatives, but essentially a niche.
willie_901
Mentor
Nikon is setting the world on fire selling film SLRs. Their stock price is through the roof.
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
I think you probably heard what you wanted to hear and read what you wanted to read. The film market may be improving a bit but it's just about done. Not many professional applications rely on it anymore, soon the local dentist won't be using film to x-ray one's mouth.
Once the old directors pass the baton to new generation, movie industry will soon be done with film too, so will be lots of others.
With Kodak a name in the past, there is just Fuji pulling the weight, Fuji will hang on to it as much as they can, the Japanese market buys film. But will that be the case 5-10 years from now? Without much R&D going into developing new film emulsions, how can one compete with a 25,600 ISO?
The resurgence of instant film is just like the moniker, it's an instant thing, it will go away too. Just like some of the other novelty resurgences we witnessed the last decade. 3D TV anyone?
Desperate times call for desperate measures, this is the junction where those who innovate will soldier on and be successful. We know what happens to the rest.
Kiu
css9450
Mentor
My dentist hasn't used film in years; its all done digitally and viewed on monitors. And they're emailed to the oral surgeon if I need to go to his office instead.
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
Kenko-Tokina 2017 exhibition booth.
I also read about the "Firin" lens line for mirror-less cams.
Kiu
willie_901
Mentor
Same here.
Allegedly the X-ray exposure is significantly lowered with the digital imaging system.
Display software enhances differences between normal and abnormal tooth surfaces.
Of course there will certainly be an upswing in film-based dental imaging that parallels the growth of new film camera sales and the rising cost of used film camera bodies.
Skiff
Well-known
You don't know the photo market at all.
In China and lots of other Asian emerging markets thousands of new medical stations have recently been equipped with film based X-Ray systems. One reason why e.g. X-Ray film manufacturer Carestream has strongly increasing film exports to Asia for years, running from record to record.
Fact is that the demand for movie film is increasing. Therefore Eastman Kodak has also just implemented three new big movie film labs in Europe (London), India (Bombay), and the US (New York).
Furthermore the demand for archival film is increasing, because all digital movie productions are archived on film, because it is much more safe than digital, and it costs 11x less than digital storage (see the scientific "The Digital Dilemma" studies of the American Film Institute).
They are not a name of the past. Their film demand is increasing, they are investing again in film, and they they are bringing back films to the market (see Ektachrome).
And there are lots of more markets than Japan in which film is very important, like China, Germany, UK, Poland, South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan....
And there are much more companies in the silver-halide (emulsion making and coating business) than Kodak and Fujifilm:
Agfa
Harman technology / Ilford Photo
Foma
Impossible Project
Adox
Film Ferrania
InovisCoat
FilmoTec
Carestream
New55
Tasma
Slavich
Lucky
There are more film / photo paper manufacturers than producers of imaging sensors for digital photo cameras.
Therefore film shooters can be very relaxed concerning the future.
Maybe tech sheet masturbators are interested in ISO 25,600.
For photographers it is irrelevant, they don't need it.
Of course it will not. The increasing demand for Instax started already in 2004 (see the Fuji publications). So a boom period for about 13 years now. That is already longer than the boom phase of digital camera sales.
Instant and standard film will stay for many decades to come, because they have characteristics and offer experiences and emotions digital imaging simply cannot offer.
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
I am glad there are so many defenders of film but let me clear it for all, it's not mainstream anymore, it will never be again.
Do you think they'll have film cellphones?
Sad part is, I was raised with film, I learned photography with a film camera.
Using film has turned into an art.
Photo-Journalists, Sports Photographers, Publications, Newspapers, Defense Industry... NONE will go back to film.
You all can hang onto it as long as you can, it's a novel cause.
I am going with the flow.
Kiu
Do you think they'll have film cellphones?
Sad part is, I was raised with film, I learned photography with a film camera.
Using film has turned into an art.
Photo-Journalists, Sports Photographers, Publications, Newspapers, Defense Industry... NONE will go back to film.
You all can hang onto it as long as you can, it's a novel cause.
I am going with the flow.
Kiu
Skiff
Well-known
Fact is, in parts of the market it is already mainstream again: Instant film photography.
In this market 2016 more than double (!!) cameras were sold compared to the DSLM market.
Therefore for Cosina it would be much much more attractive to make high(er) end Instax cameras than a DSLM camera (apart from the fact that Cosina simply don't have the resources to make a DSLM; we've already discussed that).
Not only is the Instax market much bigger, there is also no competition in the segment of more sophisticated Instax cameras.
But in general: "Mainstream", the smartphone market etc. is completely irrelevant for Cosina.
They have always been a specialist, a niche market manufacturer.
They have always been focussed on certain niches in film camera and lens manufacturing.
That was and will be their "success formula".
They don't have a chance competing in mass mainstream markets.
They will have success if they are identifying attractive niches in the areas in which they have their capabilities and competences:
Lens manufacturing, film camera manufacturing.
Compared to the whole digital imaging market, film will remain a niche.
But that is not a problem at all for film, because
- this niche is increasing
- in absolute terms the silver-halide products market is a multi-billion dollar business with lots of chances for clever and creative companies.
willie_901
Mentor
Very true. People make money meeting the needs of niches. But niches are not economic drivers. Occasionally a niche will evolve into a revolutionary market segment. This is not common.
Here is a quote from FUJIFILM Holdings 2016 Annual report
"Analog silver halide photographs, a business that the Fuji lm Group has been involved in for many years, consist of various accumulated technologies.
Currently, the ratio of photographic film as a percentage of Companywide sales is just under 1%. However, the technologies, which hold competitive advantages, developed from silver halide photographs are still utilized in many businesses in different forms."
As an aside, the linked PDF also describes the relationship of FUJIFILM's core technologies - "organic and inorganic materials chemistry, optical technologies, and analytical technologies". It shows digital cameras is just one of the dozens of product groups. Silver halide film is not a product group. It also shows photographic and X-Ray film is one of their 16 "Key Themes".
css9450
Mentor
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
My daughter got one of those Fuji instant jobs, I even took a picture of her/BF with it.
It's sitting on her shelf where I suspect it will be for a long time. The first roll is finished and the novelty forgotten.
I suspect that's what's going to happen to those other 6 million...
Kiu
It's sitting on her shelf where I suspect it will be for a long time. The first roll is finished and the novelty forgotten.
I suspect that's what's going to happen to those other 6 million...
Kiu
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku
I don't think you are right on this, do you want me to show you how many companies make imaging sensors? I checked it, it's in hundreds, it's true that Sony and Samsung have the most market share but there are hundereds who make them, they go into cameras like this too:
http://browningtrailcameras.com/
You think Fuji sells a lotta instax cams? You should check the number of trail cameras being sold.
And YES, there are lots of available light shooters that rely on 25K-50K ISO settings. Visit a local sport arena at night and you'll see plenty of them filling memory cards, they don't use ISO 400, I can assure you of that, times have changed.
Now, my question is, if Browning(a gun-maker), can make digi cams and sell them in hundreds of thousands, why can't Cosina do it?
This is the 21st century people, everyone makes digital cameras.
Where is the Bessa Digital?
Kiu
Skiff
Well-known
But with Fujifilm it is the case: They are using the anti-oxidants and collagen technology they have developed for their silver-halide products in their (new) cosmetic product lines. An important technology transfer.
Fujifilm is a very diversified technology company, with activities in dozens of different fields.
Photography is just one activity. With photography (digital and film) they are making about 14% of their company revenue.
From these 14% more than 2 billion $ are coming from silver halide products (standard photo films, archival films, X-Ray films, micro films, instant films, instant cameras, silver halide color and BW photo paper, photo chemistry, lab machines, operating of some industrial scale labs, photo books).
And less than 900 million dollars are coming from their digital camera business.
Their revenue from silver-halide is increasing, that from digital is decreasing.
Skiff
Well-known
Fujifilm sold 4.3 million Instax cameras in 2014.
5.7 million in 2015.
6.5 million in 2016.
And further several millions in the years before.
The demand for the films has been so strong that they had problems to keep up with the demand. They had to increase the production capacity, build even a new factory, and are now producing in three shifts per day, 24h without interruption.
There are good reasons why other companies like Leica have entered this market, too.
I really really don't understand your question.
Let me say so:
Porsche makes quite good cars, most of them are basically «no frills» and computerless like cars built in the 1950s or 1960s, O.K.?
Other makers build completely different cars with hundreds of CPU-bells and whistles.
Why the heck should Porsche start building cars like the aforementioned makers?
In other words: There is NO REASON why Cosina should waste their money with a digital Bessa.
Skiff
Well-known
I've talked of manufacturers who can make high-quality sensors for digital photo cameras (the others are irrelevant for digital camera producers). And in this business less than 10 are active. And the market is highly concentrated, dominated by Sony.
Browning is not making these cameras by themselves. They just buy it from an Asian OEM manufacturer.
Lots of OEM digital camera manufacturers have stopped production in the last years because of the collapsing market.
And bigger companies like Epson, Casio, Samsung also have already left the market.
And so far the remaining companies are fighting against decreasing sales, decreasing revenues and decreasing profitability.
The competition is simply brutal.
There never will be a digital Bessa.
Because
1. Cosina has no engineers, technology, machines, production infrastructure and capital for producing a digital camera.
They simply cannot do it.
2. Even if they could do it, they will not do it because they would lose their huge investment and would endanger the whole company.
In this market they would compete with much bigger, long established companies like Sony, Canon, Olympus, Panasonic, Nikon, Fujifilm, Leica, Sigma.
No chance at all to win against these competitors.
It's impossible.
That is the reality.
Successful companies know that, accept that and concentrate on their core competences.
squirrel$$$bandit
Mentor
E-x-a-c-t-l-y.
Precisely! In much the way Nintendo stuck to playing cards, and Yamaha only makes pianos.
Apples and oranges — the companies you mentioned were always selling products for poor and/or affluenza children ...