Harry Lime
Practitioner
I'm currently living in Europe.
A roll of Portra 400 is about 6-7 Euros and developing runs 8-12 euros.
In the US Amazon sells 1 single roll of Portra 400 for $5.79.
Processing at my local lab back in the US ran roughly $8-10.
Tri-X or TMY2/400 is about 3.50 - 4.90 Euro a roll depending on where you buy it. I process all of my own b/w film so that part is very cheap.
Again, if you are shooting just a roll a week that's probably not going to break the bank. I average about 20 rolls a month of black and white and if I am shooting an event or something I'll use between 6 - 15 rolls a day. Most of these are self financed documentary projects and those numbers can add up quickly, if you are shooting C41 and sending it to a lab. Thankfully I mostly shoot b/w, so it's not as big a concern to me as it may be to others.
No, offense but that scanner may be adequate for amateur use, but you are going to need a dedicated film scanner for serious work. I use a flat bed to make contact sheets of my negs, but the actual scanning is done on a 5000/9000ED or sent out to a lab with an Imacon.
Film is not dead. If anything it seems that the market has stabilized and even grown a little in recent years. But there are a few ingredients needed for the continued good health of the market. Affordable dedicated film scanners of high quality and a good supply of reliable and good cameras. People are only going to continue to shoot film if they have a camera to load it in to that will take pictures reliably and in an enjoyable manner and then be able to do something with them. In 2010 that means converting them from analog to digital.
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Thardy
Mentor
I think that is a dedicated 35mm film scanner.
jwc57
Well-known
I know this has been brought up before, and everyone tends to say it is a completely different animal, but...I do believe it shows how enthusiasts can keep something alive until the market changes.
I was reading an audiophile online magazine yesterday, and it had an article titled, "Analog Lives". Vinyl LP's have gotten popular enough once again, that Sony and Warner are beginning to release LP albums from their old catalogs. They're not cheap, no longer $5.00, but they are there for the discerning audiophile. The article also indicated that younger people are beginning to become more interested in vinyl.
All this is happening as CD sales are falling.
I can see something similar happening with film.
I was reading an audiophile online magazine yesterday, and it had an article titled, "Analog Lives". Vinyl LP's have gotten popular enough once again, that Sony and Warner are beginning to release LP albums from their old catalogs. They're not cheap, no longer $5.00, but they are there for the discerning audiophile. The article also indicated that younger people are beginning to become more interested in vinyl.
All this is happening as CD sales are falling.
I can see something similar happening with film.
hipsterdufus
Photographer?
IMHO, we'll just have to play "wait and see" with film until things stabilize. I am preparing for the death of the local film lab moreso than the death of film. However, this doesn't (necessarily) seem like the worst thing in the world to me. As long as chemicals, film, and paper are still around, film fanatics will be able to develop at home. It is only when one of those things (chemicals, film, paper) goes away that I will give up the ghost. I am beginning to set up my own dark room at the moment in preparation for the demise of my only remaining pro film lab.
In the meantime, keep shooting and quit worrying.
In the meantime, keep shooting and quit worrying.
John Lawrence
Well-known
Couldn't agree more.
Bike Tourist
Well-known
Al —
1. Me, too
2. Schroedinger's Cat is either all dead or all alive — we just never know which it will be
If film is analog and digital is . . . mmm, quantum, then Schroedinger's Cat is much more likely to appear, one way or the other, in a digital image. With film we concern ourselves with grain but not cats.
On the other hand I believe cameras themselves are passing out of existence. Picture recording will be just one of the features of your cell phone or your can opener.
KenR
Well-known
Cameras
Cameras
I agree. I think that the limited numbers and types of new film cameras is what is going to kill film. Rangefinders rule - here on RFF at least, but they are an acquired taste with limited appeal for most people. SLR's are what most people want and other than Nikon, is there a premium SLR manufacturer? The base of film users will continue to shrink as the cameras age and few replacements are available.
Cameras
I agree. I think that the limited numbers and types of new film cameras is what is going to kill film. Rangefinders rule - here on RFF at least, but they are an acquired taste with limited appeal for most people. SLR's are what most people want and other than Nikon, is there a premium SLR manufacturer? The base of film users will continue to shrink as the cameras age and few replacements are available.
bobby_novatron
Photon Collector
Agree with previous postings. Film will be around for a while yet, although I would expect the varieties of B&W and colour products to diminish further.
I'd also agree that the most striking thing has been the extinction of decent labs. I live in a city with a metro population of around one million, and the 3 main pro labs that used to be here have all closed.
There's only two camera chains (with a couple stores each) that do Fuji mini-lab processing. Fortunately, one of them still takes 120 and even does E-6. I think that's mostly due to the recent popularity in Lomography, otherwise they wouldn't bother.
Besides that, a couple drug stores in my city still have minilabs, but that's it. I've taken it upon myself to do my own B&W and C-41 processing at home. It's much cheaper and more fun, anyways.
I'd also agree that the most striking thing has been the extinction of decent labs. I live in a city with a metro population of around one million, and the 3 main pro labs that used to be here have all closed.
There's only two camera chains (with a couple stores each) that do Fuji mini-lab processing. Fortunately, one of them still takes 120 and even does E-6. I think that's mostly due to the recent popularity in Lomography, otherwise they wouldn't bother.
Besides that, a couple drug stores in my city still have minilabs, but that's it. I've taken it upon myself to do my own B&W and C-41 processing at home. It's much cheaper and more fun, anyways.
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
I've thought for a long time that film wouldn't die, that there'd always be a market for smaller manufacturers to pursue.
But film is manufactured batch-processed. You've got to invest, up front, to get an entire batch coated, cut and packaged. And prior to that, the machines all need to be cleaned, serviced, maintained, adjusted, etc. It's not a continuous operation.
Because of the intermittent nature of running sporadic film batches on partially-idle coating lines, QC becomes a real problem. So much that some manufacturers have taken to re-branding a newly coated batch with a different product name, to differentiate it from the previous batch that was noticably different in performance or characteristics. See the various product types that Freestyle sells, for an example of this. This is one reason why the big boys (Fuji, Kodak, perhaps Ilford) prefer to keep their coating lines busy with manufacturing films for other companies, since this helps keep their main product lines in tighter tolerances. Manufacturing machines don't like to sit idle.
What will kill film is when there isn't enough of a market left to keep a quality coating line running. People will only buy cr*p film so many times, until they decide that it isn't worth it any more, that will force them to choose electronic capture.
You may want to study the recent threads about the Impossible Project, and their attempts to resurrect instant film technology from a long-idle Polaroid factory in Europe. While I applaud their ambition, the results are, shall we say, less than pleasing, even for me. You've got to be a pure "art" photographer, with no client's contract on the line, to use that product as it stands today. I hope they do improve it, however; because I have an SX-70 kit waiting to be used.
This whole experience with the Impossible Project could portend what the future of film will be like, when the big boys decide to quite playing. We've taken for granted the high degree of engineering that's gone into these legacy product lines. When they're gone, who's going to have the intellectual know-how, and experience, to recreate it on a smaller basis, especially given intellectual property rights? You'll notice that Polaroid has not lent the Impossible Project their old recipes and formulas. They probably offered to license it, at an enormous fee, which IP can't afford, as an upstart firm. So they're forced to re-engineer instant film technology from the ground up, without the R & D moxy of Edwin Land's era.
There's no guarantee that film will be around into the interminable future.
~Joe
But film is manufactured batch-processed. You've got to invest, up front, to get an entire batch coated, cut and packaged. And prior to that, the machines all need to be cleaned, serviced, maintained, adjusted, etc. It's not a continuous operation.
Because of the intermittent nature of running sporadic film batches on partially-idle coating lines, QC becomes a real problem. So much that some manufacturers have taken to re-branding a newly coated batch with a different product name, to differentiate it from the previous batch that was noticably different in performance or characteristics. See the various product types that Freestyle sells, for an example of this. This is one reason why the big boys (Fuji, Kodak, perhaps Ilford) prefer to keep their coating lines busy with manufacturing films for other companies, since this helps keep their main product lines in tighter tolerances. Manufacturing machines don't like to sit idle.
What will kill film is when there isn't enough of a market left to keep a quality coating line running. People will only buy cr*p film so many times, until they decide that it isn't worth it any more, that will force them to choose electronic capture.
You may want to study the recent threads about the Impossible Project, and their attempts to resurrect instant film technology from a long-idle Polaroid factory in Europe. While I applaud their ambition, the results are, shall we say, less than pleasing, even for me. You've got to be a pure "art" photographer, with no client's contract on the line, to use that product as it stands today. I hope they do improve it, however; because I have an SX-70 kit waiting to be used.
This whole experience with the Impossible Project could portend what the future of film will be like, when the big boys decide to quite playing. We've taken for granted the high degree of engineering that's gone into these legacy product lines. When they're gone, who's going to have the intellectual know-how, and experience, to recreate it on a smaller basis, especially given intellectual property rights? You'll notice that Polaroid has not lent the Impossible Project their old recipes and formulas. They probably offered to license it, at an enormous fee, which IP can't afford, as an upstart firm. So they're forced to re-engineer instant film technology from the ground up, without the R & D moxy of Edwin Land's era.
There's no guarantee that film will be around into the interminable future.
~Joe
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Big difference here IMO! CD sales are falling because our 'discerning youth' market is happy to download mp3's to listen to on their ipods etc ... and to be honest a lot of what they are listening to doesn't require much audio quality!
God help us when Lomo get into Audio!
Neare
Well-known
One cold look at is this way: digital is the commercial output, film is for the artists.
Weddings will now always be shot with digital (99% of the time)
But in galleries, film will forever have its place.
Where there's a will there's a way - polaroid shut down, so some one else picked it up ('The Impossible Project' is truly amazing!).
Now we've got the Chinese manufacturers of film too, it may not have the quality control of fuji, kodak, ilford etc. but there are still plenty of people making film out there.
Weddings will now always be shot with digital (99% of the time)
But in galleries, film will forever have its place.
Where there's a will there's a way - polaroid shut down, so some one else picked it up ('The Impossible Project' is truly amazing!).
Now we've got the Chinese manufacturers of film too, it may not have the quality control of fuji, kodak, ilford etc. but there are still plenty of people making film out there.
jwc57
Well-known
I know of a small business that manufactures rear roof vents (by the rear window) that only fit 1971 VW Super Beetles. The guy responsible found what is probably the only two remaining vents intact so molds could be made...and the originals were destroyed in the process.
The point is, if there is a market, it will be made. If there is a market and one manufacturer can't control their quality, there is still a market and someone will take their place. We've seen that in the VW sheet metal market.
The point is, if there is a market, it will be made. If there is a market and one manufacturer can't control their quality, there is still a market and someone will take their place. We've seen that in the VW sheet metal market.
Finder
-
Don't toss those film cameras yet--still value there: http://www.coolhunting.com/tech/revision-camera.php
John Lawrence
Well-known
Nikkor AIS
Nikkor AIS
When I hear the "film is dead" mantra, I always smile. After more than 25 years of shooting and a plethora of digital cameras (Nikon D3's, D2H ...OO) at my disposal, I'm more "into" shooting film than ever. The deal with the quitters is they want to feel better for throwing their film cameras under the bus. And then there are those who've never shot a roll of film, and wouldn't know how to load a film camera if they had to. If people either quit, or just don't know, then it's easier to swallow if everyone else follows along. As far as weddings go, I just booked two partly because of work with film.
As for me, I have my heart set on a minty black Leica MP to go along with my M6/M7. I can't believe the price that this camera is going for. It's sweet. Using these M cameras has inspired me to really get out there and shoot twice as much as I did just using my Nikon D3 and F3T for that matter.
The good thing in having so many cry the sky is falling is that there are deals to be had. I bought two boxes of Ektapress 100/160 ASA, 50 rolls for $2 a roll. They've been in the fridge for 10 years and the film is fine. I know the store has three more cases of film I'll be going back for.
A few sample of recent work with film.
All taken with Leica M6/M7 and 50 1.0 Noctilux/Summilux 35 1.4/Voigtlander 28 1.9 ASPH glass, with Ektar 100 and 400 Superstore film.
Gregory
As for me, I have my heart set on a minty black Leica MP to go along with my M6/M7. I can't believe the price that this camera is going for. It's sweet. Using these M cameras has inspired me to really get out there and shoot twice as much as I did just using my Nikon D3 and F3T for that matter.
The good thing in having so many cry the sky is falling is that there are deals to be had. I bought two boxes of Ektapress 100/160 ASA, 50 rolls for $2 a roll. They've been in the fridge for 10 years and the film is fine. I know the store has three more cases of film I'll be going back for.
A few sample of recent work with film.
All taken with Leica M6/M7 and 50 1.0 Noctilux/Summilux 35 1.4/Voigtlander 28 1.9 ASPH glass, with Ektar 100 and 400 Superstore film.
Gregory
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sprokitt
Established
I too miss film. I especially miss 120/220. I loved printing B&W from 120 negs. But I have to agree with the other posts here - film is a gonner.
I essentially gave up photography for the past 5 years. It kept getting harder and harder to get anything other than crappy 400 CN film. Then getting it processed was a nightmare of high cost and dismal results. Unfortunately, during this time I also thought digital was very highly overrated and far too expensive. So, I just quit using my cameras. I figured photography was relegated to crappy P&S and cell phone images.
I resisted until about a month ago when I finally had to own a 'real' camera again and bought an M8. Overall, I'm really happy with the purchase. From what I've seen of D700 , D3, and EOS1 images I'd have to say digital has actually surpassed film in many ways.
I also have to admit that I don't miss the darkroom as much as I thought. No standing around in the dark, no chemicals, and I'm not using massive amounts of water. Aside from some loss in the craft of printmaking, what's not to like about digital process?.
Sorry man, the last days of film are upon us. Hold on to a roll or two so you can show your kids and grandkids what photography used to be like.
I essentially gave up photography for the past 5 years. It kept getting harder and harder to get anything other than crappy 400 CN film. Then getting it processed was a nightmare of high cost and dismal results. Unfortunately, during this time I also thought digital was very highly overrated and far too expensive. So, I just quit using my cameras. I figured photography was relegated to crappy P&S and cell phone images.
I resisted until about a month ago when I finally had to own a 'real' camera again and bought an M8. Overall, I'm really happy with the purchase. From what I've seen of D700 , D3, and EOS1 images I'd have to say digital has actually surpassed film in many ways.
I also have to admit that I don't miss the darkroom as much as I thought. No standing around in the dark, no chemicals, and I'm not using massive amounts of water. Aside from some loss in the craft of printmaking, what's not to like about digital process?.
Sorry man, the last days of film are upon us. Hold on to a roll or two so you can show your kids and grandkids what photography used to be like.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Can't believe the same old topic is running into the 100+ posts.
Guess digital is so very easy that people have too much time left and thus write extensive posts on the matter.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
People also used to think that the sun revolved around the earth,
but that didn't make it true.
Time Freeze
Established
cnphoto
Well-known
I think it'd be cooler if there where 36 '!'s