HHPhoto
Well-known
Let us all hope that Ilford Photo / Harman is not so stupid to give their flagship products (concerning sales volume) FP4+ and HP5+ to Freestyle.
The former Ilford made this mistake back in time (ten years ago). That has been one of the reasons why they collapsed 2004 and got in insolvency. The margins of these re-branded products have been much lower for Ilford compared to their own brand. Too much photographers bought the rebranded (low margin) stuff instead of the original Ilford material, which significantly hurts Ilford's income.
Kodak and Fuji learned this lesson recently:
Photographers learned fast that Arista Premium was Kodak, and Legacy Pro was Fuji.
And what did they do? They bought Arista Premium instead of Tri-X, and Legacy Pro instead of Fuji Neopan.
Very bad for Kodak and Fuji: They've lost customers to products with extremely low margins, hurting their income.
Probably they have now learned this lesson: It does not make sense to give high quality products to Freestyle. It damages sales of own products with better margins.
The best we can hope for Ilford and the market is, that the Arista Silver Collection is a different, new low(er) quality product.
All this avariciousness is very harmful for the market:
If we want our manufacturers to stay alive and healthy, we have to pay fair prices!
Therefore I will continue to buy original Ilford branded material, and original Fuji and Kodak branded stuff.
Cheers, Jan
Roger Hicks
Mentor
HHPhoto
Well-known
Hi Roger,
well yes, I know Harman implemented the Kentmere films as a cheaper, lower quality supplement to their Ilford films.
But the question is, which material is shipped by Harman to Freestyle for this new Arista stuff.
The problem with Kentmere for Ilford: Due to my source (a very big European film distributor) Harman's margin with the Kentmere films is in 1-2 Cent range per film. So it is extremely low.
Freestyle has a reputation in the industry for being very brutal concerning price negotiations with their suppliers.
Expanding their margin at the cost of the manufacturer.
I've heard that again and again from different manufacturers who have shipped material to FS.
Therefore I have my doubts that this news is really good news for the market or for Ilford.
It could be counterproductive (of course I hope that that will not be the case).
As I said before: For a sustainable market we have to pay fair prices to our manufacturers.
Too low prices are destroying the manufacturers.
Cheers, Jan
Roger Hicks
Mentor
Dear Jan,
Having had their fingers burnt with Freestyle before the buy-out -- after it became widely known that they were supplying premium film at low prices -- Harman/Ilford is EXTREMELY careful about all this. I have spoken to two directors about it (though I admit not in the last year or so).
You are of course absolutely right that short-term chasing of the lowest price is in the long term destructive of both quality and choice.
Cheers,
R.
tunalegs
Pretended Artist
Ilford has stated repeatedly, perhaps even ad nauseum that they DO NOT REBRAND ILFORD FILMS. It most certainly will not be anything currently sold under the Ilford name. Kentmere maybe, but I think I have even seen them mention they would not rebrand Kentmere either.
Roger Hicks
Mentor
Given the quantities that Freestyle buys, I'd have thought it would even be possible for Ilford to coat and convert master rolls for 'em.
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
Bill Clark
Mentor
In the past I was under the impression that I bought Ilford 120 film 125 ASA from Freestyle that was a private label. Still have some left; however, it expired in 2008 but still works fine. As I recall I paid, when ordering 100 rolls around $1.79 per.
The spools and paper backing sure look like FP4.
Am I wrong?
The spools and paper backing sure look like FP4.
Am I wrong?
sepiareverb
genius and moron
The Arista label seems to be the death knell for so many films and papers, I do hope Ilford can keep control of this...
And that is some butt-ugly graphics (even for Freestyle) for the Silver Collection.
And that is some butt-ugly graphics (even for Freestyle) for the Silver Collection.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
How is it the death knell? Kodak still makes Tri-X while Freestyle sells it as Arista Premium 400. Foma still makes their 100, 200, and 400 Fomapan films while Freestyle sells the Arista.EDU Ultra rebrand of it. Freestyle quit selling Legacy Pro, which was Fuji Neopan 400 and Acros, both of which are still made.
Yeah, so? You believe them? I certainly don't and that's not a bad thing.
I mean, they have to make money and save face at the same time.
Volver
Established
Do the expenses differ much producing ilford hp5+ and kentmere? I dont think so, just slightly different formulas. They want to cover different niches. FS is just a good additional sales channel to sell overstocks. I dont belive that a FS has such a big market share that arista film sales will decrease ilford sales a lot. It's not 2004, films sales are shrinking.
(sorry for bad english).
(sorry for bad english).
tunalegs
Pretended Artist
I do believe them and I don't see any reason they'd need to lie about it. I guess we'll find out what it is when it's in stock.
Seriously?
The reason is quite obvious and it's one of the main subject of this thread.
leicapixie
Well-known
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131945
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131945
Arista Premium was/is Tri-X BUT it comes mostly from the beginning and ends of a master roll.Less quality control, small areas not perfectly coated. Something i've noticed on films of late. All makes seem to have these pinholes..Thought it was me! Movie stock also has these defects. Not a problem at 24FPS or faster..
Who else has noticed? Ctein also mentions the defects in modern films. He has now moved to digital.see Online Photographer.
I find my scanned images seem to show mostly the faults of film!
Rats! It is very disappointing. It's acceptable but does not look in anyway like a wet print from when i used a real darkroom.My opinion.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131945
Arista Premium was/is Tri-X BUT it comes mostly from the beginning and ends of a master roll.Less quality control, small areas not perfectly coated. Something i've noticed on films of late. All makes seem to have these pinholes..Thought it was me! Movie stock also has these defects. Not a problem at 24FPS or faster..
Who else has noticed? Ctein also mentions the defects in modern films. He has now moved to digital.see Online Photographer.
I find my scanned images seem to show mostly the faults of film!
Rats! It is very disappointing. It's acceptable but does not look in anyway like a wet print from when i used a real darkroom.My opinion.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
More a signal of impending doom for the company and analog materials I suppose. Fuji is barely making film, Kodak is barely there. Kodak B&W papers were rebranded, and went away. Now they're rebranding the color paper...
FOMA is the exception in this list.
I've seen this as well in Arista Premium.
Highway 61
Revisited
Neopan 400 isn't made any longer - only remaining stocks are for sale on Earth. And when it's gone, it's gone.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Sorry to say, but that is simply nonsense, which is spread in internet forums by people with no knowledge of film coating.
The beginning of a master roll cannot be used for any end product at all. Not usable for even 4. grade products. It completely goes the way of recycling.
No one. Not with Kodak, Fuji, Ilford and Agfa-Gevaert current production.
With Fotokemika yes, often. Their bad quality was one of the reasons I've stopped using them.
Foma: Sometimes.
Cheers, Jan
HHPhoto
Well-known
They are the second largest film manufacturer worldwide. And they are by far the largest manufacturer of color negative paper (RA-4) worldwide (they even have introduced new RA-4 products last year).
By the way, they have also build a new plant for Instax instant film manufacturing recently, to satisfy the significantly increasing demand for Instax film, especially in Asia.
Foma is now probably the weakest candidate in the market. Much weaker than Ilford or Fuji.
And the current Freestyle / IlfordPhoto deal will certainly have negative effects on Foma's sales.
Because it simply means Ilford is (via FS) more and more entering the low price market = Foma's main market.
Cheers, Jan
HHPhoto
Well-known
That's wrong. Only the 24exp rolls production has been stopped. Normal 36exp. rolls production is continued.
Cheers, Jan
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Fotokemika and Foma regularly yes, but the Arista version of Tri-X had numerous coating problems a year and a bit ago. My college program uses the Arista Premium and we all saw it across the board, even on films from those students who have impeccable processing methods. Perhaps a fluke, and as stated elsewhere anyone can have something slip through no matter how good their QC.
I don't think anyone can argue that the range of films from Fuji and Kodak have been halved over the last few years. Not saying Freestyle has anything to do with that, just noting the coincidence. Perhaps Freestyle is a clearing house more than we think (I'm a regular Freestyle customer don't get me wrong here). I'm concerned this means that Ilford is finding it hard to move through their stock, they and ADOX have been seeming like our last great hopes.