giganova
Well-known
Hi all --
I've been shooting 135mm since the early 80s, but since I picked up a Mamiya RZ67, I barely use my Leicas anymore because these 6x7 negatives are just gorgeous.
Now I think I want more real estate and thought 4x5 would be the right treat! I would use it mostly for landscapes, city scapes and portraits, exclusively with b&w film.
Problem is, I know next to nothing about 4x5 cameras and using sheet film.
Can someone give me a primer what different cameras are out there, what the differences are, which sheet film holders fit on what camera, lens board sizes, how awkward it is to use the cameras in the field, etc. I've been developing my own negatives for decades and are not afraid of developing my own b&w sheet film. Budget doesn't matter much.
Thanks for your help!
I've been shooting 135mm since the early 80s, but since I picked up a Mamiya RZ67, I barely use my Leicas anymore because these 6x7 negatives are just gorgeous.
Now I think I want more real estate and thought 4x5 would be the right treat! I would use it mostly for landscapes, city scapes and portraits, exclusively with b&w film.
Problem is, I know next to nothing about 4x5 cameras and using sheet film.
Can someone give me a primer what different cameras are out there, what the differences are, which sheet film holders fit on what camera, lens board sizes, how awkward it is to use the cameras in the field, etc. I've been developing my own negatives for decades and are not afraid of developing my own b&w sheet film. Budget doesn't matter much.
Thanks for your help!
Corran
Well-known
Canyongazer
Canyongazer
Get ready for a tripod. (former B&J and Cambo 4x5 user here)
btw, it is funny reading Leica-philes strain at a gnat comparing 35mm lens format results.
"The 1984 :Lux has more character than the previous iteration"...good grief. ;-)
Even old and cheap MFs do far better.
It IS a different experience , tho, if that's what you are looking for , go for it.
btw, it is funny reading Leica-philes strain at a gnat comparing 35mm lens format results.
"The 1984 :Lux has more character than the previous iteration"...good grief. ;-)
Even old and cheap MFs do far better.
It IS a different experience , tho, if that's what you are looking for , go for it.
Canyongazer
Canyongazer
summilux vs cron?
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I shot 4x5 a short time and gave it up and went back to using medium format when i needed quality greater than 35mm could give.
Some things to consider:
1: Loading 4x5 film into holders in the darkroom is a pain and is hard to do without getting any dust on the film.
2: Developing 4x5 film is not easy. You will have problems with uneven developing if you try to use developing tanks. Tray developing was better in that regard but it is easy to scratch the film when doing that.
3: There is NO depth of field unless you stop down really far. Remember that the standard lens for 4x5 is 150mm, and many 4x5 users choose to use the slightly longer 210mm as their standard lens. Long focal length lenses like that have to be stopped down to f45 to get the amount of depth of field you'd get from a 50mm lens at f11.
4: Use 400 speed film. Most 4x5 users who do landscape or portrait work use 400 speed films. This is because of the need to use small apertures; with slow film you're looking at very long shutter speeds. There's no loss of quality from using 400 film, though. Even Tri-X is grainless in a 16x20 print from a 4x5 neg.
6: Perspective control. Using the camera's movements to keep buildings rectilinear is the one really advantage of large format, in my opinion. You can do perspective control in Photoshop with 35mm and medium format if you scan your film, as I do; but if you do darkroom prints, the view camera's movements are useful.
All in all, for me I found medium format to be a better choice.
Some things to consider:
1: Loading 4x5 film into holders in the darkroom is a pain and is hard to do without getting any dust on the film.
2: Developing 4x5 film is not easy. You will have problems with uneven developing if you try to use developing tanks. Tray developing was better in that regard but it is easy to scratch the film when doing that.
3: There is NO depth of field unless you stop down really far. Remember that the standard lens for 4x5 is 150mm, and many 4x5 users choose to use the slightly longer 210mm as their standard lens. Long focal length lenses like that have to be stopped down to f45 to get the amount of depth of field you'd get from a 50mm lens at f11.
4: Use 400 speed film. Most 4x5 users who do landscape or portrait work use 400 speed films. This is because of the need to use small apertures; with slow film you're looking at very long shutter speeds. There's no loss of quality from using 400 film, though. Even Tri-X is grainless in a 16x20 print from a 4x5 neg.
6: Perspective control. Using the camera's movements to keep buildings rectilinear is the one really advantage of large format, in my opinion. You can do perspective control in Photoshop with 35mm and medium format if you scan your film, as I do; but if you do darkroom prints, the view camera's movements are useful.
All in all, for me I found medium format to be a better choice.
Larry Cloetta
Mentor
The two references Corran listed are probably the best place to start, especially the large format photograph forum. There is a ton of well organized FAQs there on starting out in large format photography. Spending a few hours or days there is an education. Absorbing some of that will make it much easier to formulate specific questions about specific lenses and cameras, questions which could be asked here or over at photrio.com which probably has more large format photographers, if I were to guess.
I imagine if Roger Hicks were still with us, the first piece of advice he would give is that you don’t need to buy the most expensive lenses in order to far exceed the results you can get with 35mm or medium format.
Have fun.
I imagine if Roger Hicks were still with us, the first piece of advice he would give is that you don’t need to buy the most expensive lenses in order to far exceed the results you can get with 35mm or medium format.
Have fun.
Beemermark
Mentor
totally disagree with most of Chris's comments. I still shoot 4x5 (finally sold my 5x7).
1) you can load film in a changing bag (or your sleeping bag)
2) you shoot each sheet and developing corresponding to film speed, contrast, lightening, etc.
3) how do you plan to develop it? Trays in a darkroom are the best method - you do have a darkroom?
4) Prints? Do you have a 4x5 enlarger? I gave mine away
5) Scan? Epson V700 or V800 is best
6) Print? scanning and sending off for prints sort of negates the whole show, not much better than your 6x7
7) Absolute fun, you bet. F64, tripos, DOF, swing shifts.
8) 4x5 cameras and lenses are relatively dirt cheap
1) you can load film in a changing bag (or your sleeping bag)
2) you shoot each sheet and developing corresponding to film speed, contrast, lightening, etc.
3) how do you plan to develop it? Trays in a darkroom are the best method - you do have a darkroom?
4) Prints? Do you have a 4x5 enlarger? I gave mine away
5) Scan? Epson V700 or V800 is best
6) Print? scanning and sending off for prints sort of negates the whole show, not much better than your 6x7
7) Absolute fun, you bet. F64, tripos, DOF, swing shifts.
8) 4x5 cameras and lenses are relatively dirt cheap
Corran
Well-known
I also totally disagree with Chris's comments. Especially because the issues of DOF and movements go hand-in-hand. I'm not sure if he never tried tilt, the go-to movement for landscape, but that greatly mitigates that issue in most situations.
I started shooting 4x5 10 years ago, and while I still shoot lots of 35mm / 120 there's no replacing LF in my eyes. I now shoot 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, and even 8x20 some too. I develop 4x5 in tanks, 6-12 sheets at a time, larger films in trays.
Of course LF isn't for everybody.
I started shooting 4x5 10 years ago, and while I still shoot lots of 35mm / 120 there's no replacing LF in my eyes. I now shoot 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, and even 8x20 some too. I develop 4x5 in tanks, 6-12 sheets at a time, larger films in trays.
Of course LF isn't for everybody.
benlees
Well-known
I used to shoot 4x5 every now and then. Sounds like you need to do some serious research. If you just do landscapes then you can make do with press camera. Cityscapes you might want tilt and shift so you would need a field camera. You need a solid tripod because shutter speeds will be low no matter what. You will need a bunch of film holders and good storage so you can keep them organized.
I did 4x5 on the cheap because I wanted to learn. It is super fun but rife with pitfalls the a 35mm shooter will constantly fall into. The rhythm and prep are utterly different and requires a good work flow and a lot of concentration (yuck!). The gear can be had relatively cheaply but the film and time add up. I had a 4x5 enlarger and did some 11x14 comparison prints with 35mm 400 film. At that size there wasn't a lot of difference. Sure, there was grain with 35mm but not a lot. In fact, I preferred the 35mm but that's just my experience.
I used the taco method of developing. It was hit or miss, to say the least. Getting a 4x5 developing kit was outside my budget; if you can spring for a decent method of developing then do it. If you scan 4x5 it's either drum or a flatbed. I had a V700. The scans did not set the world alight.
I had some fun, but like Chris I found MF to be the perfect compromise. If you just want to learn and have some fun then go for it. If you are just going for quality then it might more trouble than it is worth. You need a 4x5 enlarger and a lot of space to make big prints.
I did 4x5 on the cheap because I wanted to learn. It is super fun but rife with pitfalls the a 35mm shooter will constantly fall into. The rhythm and prep are utterly different and requires a good work flow and a lot of concentration (yuck!). The gear can be had relatively cheaply but the film and time add up. I had a 4x5 enlarger and did some 11x14 comparison prints with 35mm 400 film. At that size there wasn't a lot of difference. Sure, there was grain with 35mm but not a lot. In fact, I preferred the 35mm but that's just my experience.
I used the taco method of developing. It was hit or miss, to say the least. Getting a 4x5 developing kit was outside my budget; if you can spring for a decent method of developing then do it. If you scan 4x5 it's either drum or a flatbed. I had a V700. The scans did not set the world alight.
I had some fun, but like Chris I found MF to be the perfect compromise. If you just want to learn and have some fun then go for it. If you are just going for quality then it might more trouble than it is worth. You need a 4x5 enlarger and a lot of space to make big prints.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
In a lot of situations, tilt does not work. A landscape with something tall like a tree in the foreground will not work with tilting the lens because it'll throw the top of the tree out of focus. In that situation, all you can do is stop the lens down and hope there's enough depth of field.
valdas
Mentor
My Graflex Super Graphic should artive in a couple of days, I am really looking forward to it. And yes, shallow DOF and tilt shift control is something I want to play with...
keytarjunkie
no longer addicted
Different cameras: The Speed Graphic, the famous press camera from the early 20th century, is the most recognizable. These cameras are inexpensive, but the movements are limited. Movements like tilt and swing are important in large format photography because the depth of field is so shallow, you may need them to get more things in focus. This camera can even be used handheld with a calibrated rangefinder, and a little viewfinder window on top. On the opposite end of the spectrum is a monorail camera, although they are also often inexpensive. These cameras are not portable, but they offer a lot of movements, so if you're working in a fixed space like a studio it makes more sense to use a camera like this. An example of these would be the Sinar P, or Horseman LS. If you're working out in the world, it's impractical to use a monorail camera. Many other cameras fall between the portability of the press camera and the movements of the monorail camera. For these portable field cameras, you're usually looking at traditional wood cameras (Deardorff, Ebony, Wista, Tachihara, Chamonix, Gaoersi etc) or metal cameras (Graflex, Linhof, Toyo, Horseman, Wista, etc). I would absolutely avoid the brand Intrepid, which is some kind of hipster resurgence selling garbage MDF cameras on instagram.
Sheet holders: The standard double darkslide holder will fit in all of these cameras. It holds a sheet of film on each side. Just stick to using these. You can buy them used. Many were made by Fidelity or Lisco. You will probably want 10-15 holders (20-30 sheets) if you're going out for a day, and it helps to have a changing bag you can bring if you run out of film.
Lens board sizes: There are a few. The most common are Linhof (with the little "vampire teeth" at the bottom sides), Graflex (square metal sheet), and Sinar (giant sheet). Some others as well. I think Linhof is the most common though.
Using in the field: It depends on which camera you get. Nearly everyone working in large format photography is working slowly on a tripod. You will probably need a large, comfortable backpack to carry the camera, tripod, 2-4 lenses, spot meter, 10-15 film holders, magnifier loupe, darkcloth, etc. The greatest accessory to a large format photographer is a car. The second greatest is a ladder. Bonus if you can work on the roof of your car.
Much more information is available at the large format photography forum linked above. Personally I use a Linhof Technika V. I think Linhofs are the "best" field cameras but it's subjective and depends on what you value. They are quite heavy, partly because they have a rangefinder built in. A cheaper, slightly lighter choice, might be a Horseman FA or Toyo 45AII. On the wooden side, many enjoy working with the Chamonix F2 and N2 cameras. Unlike the metal field cameras where I can leave a standard lens attached, the wooden ones fold up without the lens attached, adding time to your set-up. I would note that in my experience, wooden cameras are generally a little less sturdy than all-metal ones, which can become a problem on windy days.
maryland_fotos
Well-known
Be prepared for some learning curve time. I started a year and half ago and am still learning. Film loading in a dark bag becomes pretty routine. With the bellows of these LF cameras one has to be aware of pinholes that seem to spring light leaks where there were none before. That large format website that Corran links to is invaluable. Somewhere on there is a page with a long list of steps every time one takes a photo. Its worthwhile studying that list and using it as a general checklist. One time I drove to a spot to take a picture of a building and as I set up the tripod I realized I forgot the loaded film holder 
I haven't done my own development but now need to look into it.
Nevertheless when one gets results its quite a bit more rewarding than smaller formats. It just needs much patience and perseverance in this day of phone snaps and Instagram.
I haven't done my own development but now need to look into it.
Nevertheless when one gets results its quite a bit more rewarding than smaller formats. It just needs much patience and perseverance in this day of phone snaps and Instagram.
giganova
Well-known
Great stuff, thanks for your help!
I have a sturdy tripod with a ball head (Gitzo 4 series), changing bags, etc, and would be using the Jobo 2500 tank system because I have used since the 80s and are still using the Jobo 1500 tank system for my 35/120 film development, which I love. I already have an Epson V700 scanner.
The Wista, Toyo, or Linhof Technica cameras look nice.
I would want a slightly wide angle lens, 28-35mm equivalent for 35mm. What's the corresponding lens for 4x5, a 90mm lens?
I have a sturdy tripod with a ball head (Gitzo 4 series), changing bags, etc, and would be using the Jobo 2500 tank system because I have used since the 80s and are still using the Jobo 1500 tank system for my 35/120 film development, which I love. I already have an Epson V700 scanner.
The Wista, Toyo, or Linhof Technica cameras look nice.
I would want a slightly wide angle lens, 28-35mm equivalent for 35mm. What's the corresponding lens for 4x5, a 90mm lens?
LCSmith
Well-known
Every serious photographer should try 4x5 at least once. The medium is still very much employed by architectural photographers and preservationists. My recommendation is to find a teacher with a darkroom and cameras. Something like a field camera handles quite differently from a monorail or studio camera. Many 4x5 printers and photographers have access to several cameras. The teacher would probably be grateful for the work, and you would learn more in a few sessions than years on internet forums.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Yes, a 90 is the most popular wideangle for 4x5. Keep in mind that many 4x5 cameras do not work well with 90mm lenses because the front and rear standards of the camera have to be very close together to focus a 90mm. You may be able to focus, but the bellows will be scrunched up so much that movements will not be possible. Some cameras have interchangeable bellows; you'd replace the normal one with something called a Bag Bellows. With other cameras, you would use a 'recessed lens board.'
maryland_fotos
Well-known
90 roughly translates to 28mm for 135. I generally divide by 3, that may be a bit simplistic considering aspect ratio is different.
https://lensn2shutter.com/35mmchart.html
Just beware that 90mm, and especially shorter lenses, can be a bit of a struggle with the rise movement in field cameras, which I have used the most.
https://lensn2shutter.com/35mmchart.html
Just beware that 90mm, and especially shorter lenses, can be a bit of a struggle with the rise movement in field cameras, which I have used the most.
maryland_fotos
Well-known
Good point Chris, I believe some of my light leaks have sprung up, or worsened, after using the rise a bit too much on the 90 and 75mm lenses. Live and learn. The Linhof Master Technika has a tab on its rear standard that can be opened up for shorter lenses.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Contact prints...glow..thats reason enough...
And if you need big...really big..well...you will have the sq inch film area to provide..
And if you need big...really big..well...you will have the sq inch film area to provide..
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
To me serious photography has nothing to do with format, but capabilities to deliver content.
I don't know if Jane Bown, HCB, GW did at least 4x5. Jane Bown ditched Rolleflex to OM.
Her portraits are just as good as by Yousuf Karsh.
I have seen Joel Meyerowitz 8x10s and they were just not impressive as his Leica photos.
I'm gearhead, but with some interest in the content. 4x5 was interesting experience, might get back to it. With only one note, results were mediocre. And not only mine, but next to all of the recent LF I have seen has lack of the content.
Where are plenty of free videos how to use LF, including Scheimpflug. But no teacher will help with content. Then negative size becomes important.