I need a 4x5 Primer!

Thank you all for the suggestions! I am still on the fence what direction I should go. View camera seems the way to go for portability and practicality because I would be using the camera mostly for landscape/citycapes. I have in my Ebay watchlist the following cameras, in ascending order by price. All in excellent condition, but without lenses and film holders:

  • Toyo 45CF $450.-
  • Wista 45VX $650.-
  • Linhof Super Technica V $800.-
  • Chamonix 4x5 N-1 $960.-

Do you gravitate to certain camera models/manufacturers?
 
Emile de Leon said:
Ebony makes nice 4x5's..
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Emile, You probably know that Ebony is no longer in business. As a result few of them come up for sale & asking prices are through the roof. The RW series they made was a beautiful camera at a reasonable cost. I haven't seen one come up for sale for years now.
 
I knew they were out of business..as I got one of the last 8x10's they made..
Didnt know that Ebony was scarce though..
Thought the RW 4x5 was still available on Ebay etc...but I guess thats a done deal..
Nick Nixon offered me all kindz of stuff for my basically unused 8x10..cash money + prints..or trade on Deardorff 11x14 modified by Richard Ritter to be lightweight..but I didnt want to part with the Ebony..
I had it modified to do 5x8 and 4x10's too..sacrilege I know..but it is a cool cam now..
I shoulda known..that these were gonna be classics..
Oh well..
 
A friend of mine has an Ebony RW45. I've taken a look at it and played with it a bit in the field, and was not particularly impressed, in terms of usability. I think the current offerings available new - Chamonix, Shen-Hao, Canham, Toyo, etc. are all at least as good if not better, and often cheaper. If open to used options, there is a plethora of usable cameras for all shooting styles. Admittedly, the hard part for a newbie is figuring out what they want and how to evaluate the options. For that, any camera is a good starter camera to learn what they need or don't need. For a few months, I actually tried hiking with a Toyo GII complete with big boxy case, which was an incredibly stupid thing to do. Dragged that thing to the top of the highest mountain in the Smokies...
 
Bryan, In their day, Ebony was the new kid on the block.... before Chamonix & Shenhao...& different than Canham in handling terms. Leather bellows, beautiful woodcraft...& the prices were comparable to todays Chamonix.
 
giganova said:
Thank you all for the suggestions! I am still on the fence what direction I should go. View camera seems the way to go for portability and practicality because I would be using the camera mostly for landscape/citycapes. I have in my Ebay watchlist the following cameras, in ascending order by price. All in excellent condition, but without lenses and film holders:
  • Toyo 45CF $450.-
  • Wista 45VX $650.-
  • Linhof Super Technica V $800.-
  • Chamonix 4x5 N-1 $960.-
Do you gravitate to certain camera models/manufacturers?
Click to expand...


All fine cameras and okay prices. However, I would pass on the Toyo 45CF. Get the Aluminum version (45A) instead. The carbon fiber is not reliable long-term, based on what I've read and heard from friends. The 45A and Wista 45VX are both excellent choices.

I lean towards Linhof, but the Technika V is at least 45-50 years old, and so if it hasn't been serviced recently, it will need more money put into it. CLA with fresh bellows from LAFLEX will set you back. I would hesitate on this plan unless you're really committed, but if you are, you won't be disappointed. It is a step above the rest in terms of precise control and build quality. The Tech V is a bit limited with wide angles past 90 or 75, as I mentioned before (this is probably the case for the Toyo and Wista as well).

The Chamonix 045N-1...on the one hand, it will be the newest of the bunch, and very lightweight. Looks nice. Definitely slower in operation, with the lens not stowing away into the camera and the front standard having to be "aligned" every time you set up. It is probably the most flexible in terms of movements, but this is not everything. Also, their 45N-2 offers some improvements for only a little more money. Hopefully these thoughts help.
 
Deardorff38 said:
Bryan, In their day, Ebony was the new kid on the block.... before Chamonix & Shenhao...& different than Canham in handling terms. Leather bellows, beautiful woodcraft...& the prices were comparable to todays Chamonix.
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Interesting how their prices went up. When I got into LF 10 years ago they seemed overpriced and I never looked that close at them, but it seemed the fit and finish were the main things that folks talked about - which I'm not big into as a user.

I still think most new 4x5 users are best served buying a cheapish Crown/Speed and go from there. Despite owning a number of different cameras I still use my Speed for interesting barrel lenses.
 
I pulled the trigger, OMG, what have I done?! :eek:

The Chamonix N-1 was gone and no others seems to be available at the moment, so I bought a refurbished Linhof Super Technica V with new bellows and covering. Seller wanted $850.- but accepted my offer for $700. See picture below. Saved me $300 over the Chamonix which means I'll get a lens for free. :D I like the Linhof brand because my father had a lot of Linhof gear when I was young. Its such an iconic no-nonsense German industrial brand.

Now I need:
  • Lens. I will probably get a 35mm equivalent ~105mm lens. Not many on the market in the US, all I found is in Japan.
  • Sheet film holders. Plastic or metal sheet film holders? Catlabs has both and I am not sure what the difference is.
  • Sheet film! Has to be Ilford FP-4 because I have used nothing else since the 1980s and love it.
  • Developing tank & reels, probably the Jobo 2500 system because I have been using the 1500 system for decades for my 35/120 negatives.
  • 4x5 negative holder for my Epson V700 scanner. Any suggestions?
I wanted to get into LF photography my entire life ... but now that I bought a LF camera I am thinking that I must be crazy.
 

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giganova said:
I pulled the trigger, OMG, what have I done?! :eek:

The Chamonix N-1 was gone and no others seems to be available at the moment, so I bought a refurbished Linhof Super Technica V with new bellows and covering. Seller wanted $850.- but accepted my offer for $700. See picture below. Saved me $300 over the Chamonix which means I'll get a lens for free. :D I like the Linhof brand because my father had a lot of Linhof gear when I was young. Its such an iconic no-nonsense German industrial brand.

Now I need:
  • Lens. I will probably get a 35mm equivalent ~105mm lens. Not many on the market in the US, all I found is in Japan.
  • Sheet film holders. Plastic or metal sheet film holders? Catlabs has both and I am nor sure what the difference is.
  • Sheet film! Has to be Ilford FP-4 because I have used nothing else since the 1980s and love it.
  • Developing tank & reels, probably the Jobo 2500 system because I have been using the 1500 system for decades for my 35/120 negatives.
  • 4x5 negative holder for my Epson V700 scanner. Any suggestions?
I wanted to get into LF photography my entire life ... but now that I bought a LF camera I am thinking that I must be crazy.
Click to expand...


Long list :)

Wasn’t there a 4x5 holder with V700 when you bought it (mine had one)?
I joined LF clan a week ago, my Super Graphic arrived recently, with the lens and seller included some holders free of charge - so, basically ready to shoot. I am just waiting for the film to arrive from Fotoimpex (in a couple of days) and some reels (I already had developing tanks). Exciting it is...
 
giganova said:
I pulled the trigger, OMG, what have I done?! :eek:

The Chamonix N-1 was gone and no others seems to be available at the moment, so I bought a refurbished Linhof Super Technica V with new bellows and covering. Seller wanted $850.- but accepted my offer for $700. See picture below. Saved me $300 over the Chamonix which means I'll get a lens for free. :D I like the Linhof brand because my father had a lot of Linhof gear when I was young. Its such an iconic no-nonsense German industrial brand.

Now I need:
  • Lens. I will probably get a 35mm equivalent ~105mm lens. Not many on the market in the US, all I found is in Japan.
  • Sheet film holders. Plastic or metal sheet film holders? Catlabs has both and I am not sure what the difference is.
  • Sheet film! Has to be Ilford FP-4 because I have used nothing else since the 1980s and love it.
  • Developing tank & reels, probably the Jobo 2500 system because I have been using the 1500 system for decades for my 35/120 negatives.
  • 4x5 negative holder for my Epson V700 scanner. Any suggestions?
I wanted to get into LF photography my entire life ... but now that I bought a LF camera I am thinking that I must be crazy.
Click to expand...


Congrats! One small thing before you spend money: 35mm equivalent is about 120mm (= width of frame, just as 35 is for 135) if you care about the horizontal AOV, and about 150mm if the vertical AOV is relevant.
 
giganova said:
I pulled the trigger, OMG, what have I done?! :eek:

The Chamonix N-1 was gone and no others seems to be available at the moment, so I bought a refurbished Linhof Super Technica V with new bellows and covering. Seller wanted $850.- but accepted my offer for $700. See picture below. Saved me $300 over the Chamonix which means I'll get a lens for free. :D I like the Linhof brand because my father had a lot of Linhof gear when I was young. Its such an iconic no-nonsense German industrial brand.

Now I need:
  • Lens. I will probably get a 35mm equivalent ~105mm lens. Not many on the market in the US, all I found is in Japan.
  • Sheet film holders. Plastic or metal sheet film holders? Catlabs has both and I am not sure what the difference is.
  • Sheet film! Has to be Ilford FP-4 because I have used nothing else since the 1980s and love it.
  • Developing tank & reels, probably the Jobo 2500 system because I have been using the 1500 system for decades for my 35/120 negatives.
  • 4x5 negative holder for my Epson V700 scanner. Any suggestions?
I wanted to get into LF photography my entire life ... but now that I bought a LF camera I am thinking that I must be crazy.
Click to expand...


Congrats! Welcome to the club!

If I understand, you're looking to buy a 105mm lens? You need to be careful with this focal length, as many of the 105mm lenses you will find are made to cover medium format, not 4x5. Instead, look for either a 90mm (~28) or a 120mm/125mm (~35). You could get the 110mm Super Symmar XL but that'll cost you a lot! Start with Nikkor or Fujinon lenses to save some money.

This page was last updated in 2002 but is a very useful resource, if it hasn't been linked already: http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/

Plastic holders are what you want. My favorites are the Toyo ones with blue lettering. Lisco, Fidelity, Riteway, Linhof, etc. are all fine. f.64 makes a nice pouch that holds five at a time.

Jobo 2500 is good. The 3010 tank is best but it's a big investment. The V700 comes with 4x5 holders. You could buy a holder from Betterscanning, or use a digital camera to scan and convert. This method is a bit better than the V700 and a bit worse than Imacon/drum scanning from my tests.
 
I’d advise a novice to first invest in a good lens with modern, accurate shutter. This is the single most important thing, and in my view trumps any other considerations. You can then fit that lens to a starter camera like a Graflex or Intrepid. Don’t fret over movements at this point. But the Intrepid, though it lacks rear movements, is more than adequate for a beginner.

Then start shooting paper negatives. Use grade 2 RC, from Freestyle Photo. It’s cheap to make mistakes and learn with paper.

Only after you learn the ropes should you then start shooting sheet film.

Only after you exhaust what your beginner kit can do should you consider upgrading the camera.

The essence of LF is a good lens and shutter projecting an accurate image on a light sensitive medium. Start there. This isn’t like small-format systems where you’re tempted into constant upgrades on the camera. It’s painting with light.
 
Giganova. Congratulations on the Linhof. For a 35mm equivalent check the Osaka Congo 120. small lens in a Copal 0 shutter. Here's one on Eb*y (not mine) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Osaka-Wide...475282?hash=item365acad152:g:yRAAAOSw7oBeC2Cz in a later all black shutter. Kerry Thalman gives reviews on these on his lens page. I had one way back when for my old Deardorff. Welcome to the LF club... amazing things...you'll see
 
giganova said:
I pulled the trigger, OMG, what have I done?! :eek:

The Chamonix N-1 was gone and no others seems to be available at the moment, so I bought a refurbished Linhof Super Technica V with new bellows and covering
Click to expand...

Looks like a great camera! Here's the instruction manual for the IV, should be useful for your V: https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/01693/01693.pdf
Now I need:

[*]Lens. I will probably get a 35mm equivalent ~105mm lens. Not many on the market in the US, all I found is in Japan.
Click to expand...

Comparing 24x36mm with 96x120mm isn't super straightforward, since one is a 2:3 ratio and the other is 4:5, so do you crop one to match the other or not? There's no easy answer, by the way.

If you compare based on the short dimension, 96/24 is 4x, so you'd want a 140mm lens, which doesn't exist, but lots of 135mm lenses exist.

If you compare along the long dimension, 120/36 is 3-1/3x, so 35mm x 3.33 is 117, and that also doesn't exist. Schneider made their APO-Symmar and APO-Symmar-L lenses in 120mm, and that's what I started with when I got back into LF in 2000 (the plain APO-Symmar, as the L came out a few years later). 120mm is a less common focal length, so it may be harder to find.

If you compare along the diagonal (~154mm to 43.3mm), which is the most common way of comparing two formats that aren't the same ratio, you get about 3.5x, or 122.5mm, and I can recommend the Fuji 125/5.6, which is what replaced my Schneider 120/5.6 APO-Symmar.

Or, just get one of the very many 135/5.6 lenses from Caltar, Fuji, Nikon, Rodenstock or Schneider as a good "somewhat wide" starter lens. It's one of the most common focal lengths in 4x5 for a reason. Just get one with a good shutter. If it's a Copal shutter (overwhelmingly the most common), the black rim versions are newer (post 1980 or so) than the silver rimmed versions, so are likely in better shape.

[*]Sheet film holders. Plastic or metal sheet film holders? Catlabs has both and I am not sure what the difference is.
Click to expand...

Plastic is plentiful and cheap. Lisco, Fidelity or Riteway (they're all very similar) from Ebay, get a bunch, some may be bad, so get a few more than you need. Toyo holders are very nice, but not so cheap. Linhof holders are very very nice and very very much not cheap! Expect to pay $8-15 for Lisco, Fidelity or Riteway plastic holders in good condition. I have mostly Fidelity holders, plus some Toyo.

Keh is a good source for equipment, not the cheapest, but not as iffy as eBay: https://www.keh.com/shop/accessories/large-format-accessories.html

[*]Sheet film! Has to be Ilford FP-4 because I have used nothing else since the 1980s and love it.

[*]Developing tank & reels, probably the Jobo 2500 system because I have been using the 1500 system for decades for my 35/120 negatives.
Click to expand...

I picked up a 2500 kit long ago, it had the 2520 drum, one 2509n reel (just like the kit you linked), plus the sheet film loader (#2508). I don't see catlabs selling that particular 3-part combination, but I do like the film loader: https://www.catlabs.info/product/jobo-2508-sheet-film-loader, so you may want to consider getting one as well.

Some people swear by the film loader, others swear at it. Anyway, if you're used to Jobo, stick with it. Just realize that rotary processing should be 15% less time than non-rotary processing when you're ready to process your first sheets. See times for virtually any film/developer combo here: https://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php

Oh, and once you buy film, take out two sheets from the box, and sacrifice those two sheets to teaching yourself how to load not just the film holders, but the Jobo reel, in daylight. Practice several times, then practice with your eyes closed, then practice with the sacrificial sheets in your changing bag, then load "real" film. You'll save a lot of future sheets by sacrificing those two!

[*]4x5 negative holder for my Epson V700 scanner. Any suggestions?
[/LIST]
I wanted to get into LF photography my entire life ... but now that I bought a LF camera I am thinking that I must be crazy.
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As others have said, your 700 should have come with a 4x5 holder.

Welcome to the madhouse! It's a lot of fun!

Drew
 
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