Larry Cloetta
Mentor
Should have mentioned that there is also a large format section over at photo.net.
Not as straight educational as largeformatphotography.info, but there are a lot of discussions of equipment, mostly, and technique.
https://www.photo.net/discuss/forums/large-format.1547/
Not as straight educational as largeformatphotography.info, but there are a lot of discussions of equipment, mostly, and technique.
https://www.photo.net/discuss/forums/large-format.1547/
chipgreenberg
Well-known
You've received a lot of good advise here.
When I was shooting 4x5, and I've shot lots of film, I really found Sinar's focusing swing/tilt calculator and DOF scales really unique at the time. They gave very precise control over the plane of focus. While the F / F1 are monorail cameras, the monorail is modular and can be shortened, to say 6 inches. Bag bellows also fit. So it can be made pretty light and compact.
These were Sinar's entry level cameras. Sinar's aren't cheap. But I found they made a huge difference in the control I had over precise focussing.
When I was shooting 4x5, and I've shot lots of film, I really found Sinar's focusing swing/tilt calculator and DOF scales really unique at the time. They gave very precise control over the plane of focus. While the F / F1 are monorail cameras, the monorail is modular and can be shortened, to say 6 inches. Bag bellows also fit. So it can be made pretty light and compact.
These were Sinar's entry level cameras. Sinar's aren't cheap. But I found they made a huge difference in the control I had over precise focussing.
Deardorff38
Mentor
giganova. Here's a couple of videos by my buddy, pro shooter Todd Korol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McM3fwFOMng
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU5EpJB56tE
I would agree with the statements made in posts #7,8,9. It's worth giving it a shot especially if you've got access to darkroom. To really benefit from LF (BW) you need to process your own film and do your own printing.
Since we're in the RFF, where people don't bat an eye at buying a Leica M10, i'd suggest avoiding the cheapest options. Do a little online research and buy one simple field camera.... Toyo field, Wista, Linhof Super Technika. (Chamonix makes great new 4x5 cameras). Spend $500-$1200 and be done with it. Buy a lens or two and a few accessories and leave the gearheading behind. You'll figure out the film loading & processing over time. The tonal scale in a (darkroom) print will amaze you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McM3fwFOMng
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU5EpJB56tE
I would agree with the statements made in posts #7,8,9. It's worth giving it a shot especially if you've got access to darkroom. To really benefit from LF (BW) you need to process your own film and do your own printing.
Since we're in the RFF, where people don't bat an eye at buying a Leica M10, i'd suggest avoiding the cheapest options. Do a little online research and buy one simple field camera.... Toyo field, Wista, Linhof Super Technika. (Chamonix makes great new 4x5 cameras). Spend $500-$1200 and be done with it. Buy a lens or two and a few accessories and leave the gearheading behind. You'll figure out the film loading & processing over time. The tonal scale in a (darkroom) print will amaze you.
chipgreenberg
Well-known
BTW like a lot of gear you could purchase a 4x5 kit, see if you like it, and either sell to upgrade or because it didn't gel without much downside.
Nokton48
Mentor
Here is what I have (so far). Sinar Norma cameras are as precise to use as later ones once you understand the limitations. Normas are 47mm to 1000mm and are better built in my experience, than later Sinars (I had F and F+ cameras).
Retro 70s Studio Storage Space by Nokton48, on Flickr
Retro 70s Studio Storage Space by Nokton48, on FlickrCorran
Well-known
Yes yes but in plenty of situations it's just what you need - even in MF land I prefer to shoot with a camera that can employ tilt, for landscapes.
Do the DOF math and you'll find that at worst, the 4x5 shot equals the resolution of the MF equivalent, and even if you compare apples to oranges and use 400 speed for 4x5 and 100 speed for 120, which isn't a fair comparison, the graininess will be no different.
After thousands of sheets of 4x5+ and making darkroom prints from 35mm/120/4x5/etc, my opinion is that this DOF issue is way, way overblown. It's not a problem to shoot at f/45 on 4x5 and neither is it an issue to shoot at f/22 on 120. I think a huge part of the problem for newbies at LF is that they are so overly worried about diffraction and all that stuff that people tell them is a problem they shoot at f/16 and then wonder why their negatives aren't as sharp as their 120...well it's because you didn't have enough DOF and are using the lens at a suboptimal aperture. Or they indeed go too far with tilt and a third of the image is blurry.
With practice and thoughtful application of technique one can get stunning negatives that print wonderfully. The work done in the field pays dividends in the darkroom.
One caveat I'll make here, for those working purely in the hybrid world: a 6x7 negative scanned on an Imacon or Nikon Coolscan 8/9000 level device will equal a 4x5 negative scanned on a common Epson flatbed. Unfortunately in that arena, it takes some more specialized equipment to get the actual value out of large format, but if you are scanning your 120 on an Epson anyway you will certainly see an improvement from 4x5.
keytarjunkie
no longer addicted
You couldn’t go wrong with any of those, as long as they are in good shape!
The aspect ratio is different so it’s a little difficult to translate, but usually 90 - 120 - 150 is kind of like the classic 28 - 35 - 50 on a 135 camera. There are lots of 90mm lenses out there, and there are four main brands of large format lenses: Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon, and Fuji. The Japanese lenses are a little less expensive but still excellent. The 90mm f4.5 lenses are huge and heavy. The f8 versions are lighter and smaller. Some lenses have larger image circles than others, which gives you more room for movements (or the ability to use them on larger formats).
The rear element of the Schneider 90mm f5.6 SA is so huge that it doesn’t fit into many cameras - you need to unscrew the rear element and attach it through the back! It’s a lens with a very large image circle, really excellent for big movements.
One of the best large format wides is the Schneider 110mm f5.6 Super Symmar XL. It also has a lot of movements and it’s compact and not too wide, as I find 90mm.
Many people choose the 135 - 180 combo, which is like 40 - 60 on a 135. Or the 90 - 150 - 210, which is like 28 - 50 - 80. These aren’t exact numbers, just my idea of what it’s like. Just be cautious with wides on older cameras, many field cameras can’t be easily used with lenses wider than 90 or 75. A recessed lens board helps.
Beemermark
Mentor
Raise the front standard, if necessary drop the rear standard. Use a 90mm . Has to be a really tall tree if that doesn't work.
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
Lots of pretty good info here. You'll have to decide for yourself if the opinions are useful to you or not.
I am not anything close to an expert in LF but I have been happily using 4x5 for a couple years now and can share what I've found works for me.
There are several different types of cameras, from "point and shoot" types to fully controlled movement types. Which is better for you will largely depend on what you want to photograph.
I decided on a wood field camera for it's better portability over a monorail because I'm shooting primarily landscapes. Because I am not shooting macro or product photos, I don't miss the flexibility in movements that a monorail camera offers.
I chose a wooden camera because of budget and because I like wooden objects.
I also did get an Intrepid camera. NO mdf to be found and while I know there are objectively better made cameras--and certainly prettier ones--it is made well enough for me. Because this is a hobby for me and not my income and because I do not have unlimited money available to spend my choice was that the $300 I spent on it was a good purchase. For me.
I also chose it because it is pretty light weight--that's a bit of a double edged chioce, though. Lighter means easier to carry so I'm willing to take longer--or steeper--hikes with it. Lighter also means I need to be more aware of wind and how I'm setting up.
I had a good tripod before I got the camera and the ball head on it was fine with the weight of my 4x5 set up--camera, lens, and film holder--but I very quickly discovered that a ball head was not what I wanted. It was much more fiddly to adjust the camera in one direction with out also changing the other directions. I replaced that ball head with a basic pan-tilt head and that made final adjustments to camera position quite a lot easier. For me.
I started with HP5, a Stearman daylight tank, and HC-110 for processing and have had no reason to change that, yet. As soon as that combination starts to limit what I can or want to do I will think about changing it but, so far, it has been fine.
Which leads into another thing I had to get serious about: a consistent working methodology. When shooting 35mm, I'd been doing that long enough that I didn't "need" to think about the mechanics of making an exposure very much. Because 4x5 is new to me, I decided that would have to change. So, I have learned to be very methodical in my set up, in how I handle the camera and how I Make the photographs, and especially how I process the film. I needed to find a rock to stand on for this part because I think there are so many potential variables that to get repeatable results, I needed to minimize those as much as I could.
Lastly, I have been using one lens since I started and am just now looking to add another lens to my kit. I have been well served by not chasing the "perfect" lens and sticking with the one I started with in that I now have a pretty good idea what to expect and a better idea about where the lens I have is limiting me. (Not very much, honestly, but I do want a bit narrower fov, so I'm looking at something a bit longer.)
Good luck!
Rob
I am not anything close to an expert in LF but I have been happily using 4x5 for a couple years now and can share what I've found works for me.
There are several different types of cameras, from "point and shoot" types to fully controlled movement types. Which is better for you will largely depend on what you want to photograph.
I decided on a wood field camera for it's better portability over a monorail because I'm shooting primarily landscapes. Because I am not shooting macro or product photos, I don't miss the flexibility in movements that a monorail camera offers.
I chose a wooden camera because of budget and because I like wooden objects.
I also did get an Intrepid camera. NO mdf to be found and while I know there are objectively better made cameras--and certainly prettier ones--it is made well enough for me. Because this is a hobby for me and not my income and because I do not have unlimited money available to spend my choice was that the $300 I spent on it was a good purchase. For me.
I also chose it because it is pretty light weight--that's a bit of a double edged chioce, though. Lighter means easier to carry so I'm willing to take longer--or steeper--hikes with it. Lighter also means I need to be more aware of wind and how I'm setting up.
I had a good tripod before I got the camera and the ball head on it was fine with the weight of my 4x5 set up--camera, lens, and film holder--but I very quickly discovered that a ball head was not what I wanted. It was much more fiddly to adjust the camera in one direction with out also changing the other directions. I replaced that ball head with a basic pan-tilt head and that made final adjustments to camera position quite a lot easier. For me.
I started with HP5, a Stearman daylight tank, and HC-110 for processing and have had no reason to change that, yet. As soon as that combination starts to limit what I can or want to do I will think about changing it but, so far, it has been fine.
Which leads into another thing I had to get serious about: a consistent working methodology. When shooting 35mm, I'd been doing that long enough that I didn't "need" to think about the mechanics of making an exposure very much. Because 4x5 is new to me, I decided that would have to change. So, I have learned to be very methodical in my set up, in how I handle the camera and how I Make the photographs, and especially how I process the film. I needed to find a rock to stand on for this part because I think there are so many potential variables that to get repeatable results, I needed to minimize those as much as I could.
Lastly, I have been using one lens since I started and am just now looking to add another lens to my kit. I have been well served by not chasing the "perfect" lens and sticking with the one I started with in that I now have a pretty good idea what to expect and a better idea about where the lens I have is limiting me. (Not very much, honestly, but I do want a bit narrower fov, so I'm looking at something a bit longer.)
Good luck!
Rob
Beemermark
Mentor
On the subject of light weight and hiking-
I gave up my 5x7 because I'm old and decrepit. Not into long hikes anymore. You can get a light weight 4x5 but the tripod, film holders, light meter, lenses, and all the misc. still adds up to a bit of weight. When my 3 daughters were young I'd carry the camera and split the gear between the three. By the time they became teenagers they no longer would go on hikes with dad.
I gave up my 5x7 because I'm old and decrepit. Not into long hikes anymore. You can get a light weight 4x5 but the tripod, film holders, light meter, lenses, and all the misc. still adds up to a bit of weight. When my 3 daughters were young I'd carry the camera and split the gear between the three. By the time they became teenagers they no longer would go on hikes with dad.
LCSmith
Well-known
I can tell you any number of names in the DC area. Just message me.
Nokton48
Mentor
Larry Cloetta
Mentor
Giganova,
These are some good sources of large format lens information if wanting to spend a good while down the lens rabbit hole:
https://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2016/3/good-lenses-for-a-4x5-view-camera
http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/lenses/
http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/lenses.htm
http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/future.htm
And the other lens pages on the Thalmann site.
These are some good sources of large format lens information if wanting to spend a good while down the lens rabbit hole:
https://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2016/3/good-lenses-for-a-4x5-view-camera
http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/lenses/
http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/lenses.htm
http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/future.htm
And the other lens pages on the Thalmann site.
drew.saunders
Well-known
As mentioned above, the LFPI web page (https://www.largeformatphotography.info) has enough to keep you busy for days. There's a question and answer forum at https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php that you can browse. You should sign up. After 30 days, you'll be able to see the For Sale section (the delay has kept the spammers away for years).
About every month or two someone posts a "I want to get started in 4x5" or similar thread. The latest one is https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?157682-Interested-in-4-x-5 and you can learn a lot from that. One thing you'll learn is that if you ask 10 large format photographers what's the best (camera/lens/film/developer/etc.), you'll get 11 "definitive" answers.
Bernice Louie posted a reply that is worth reading, in that she suggests starting from the desired end result (likely a print) and working back from that to determine what lens(es) you'll want, and then based on what the kind of photographs you want and the lenses you'll use to get them, what camera to use. So many people start with the camera and then hope they'll figure it all out.
Fortunately, LF is reasonably cheap these days, so you can choose the "wrong" camera to start. If you stick with it, your first LF camera is not likely to be your last. Whether you choose a press style camera, wooden field, metal field, light "field" monorail or studio monorail, all will work fine, you'll just have to decide which works best for you.
I started with a Calumet Wood Field with a Caltar 150/5.6 in college, because that's what they had to use when I took a LF class (in 1988), and the other option was a Calumet monorail that I didn't want to lug around. I got back into LF in 2000 with a 4x5 Tachihara in cherry wood (that someone honestly thought was a video camera once), which I've since replaced in 2008 with an Ebony 45SU, which I intend on keeping as long as I'm still able to take photographs. When people see a wooden camera with bellows, they often assume it must be antique, so I just say "it's an '08" and let them guess the century.
If I had studio space, I'd get a Sinar and a Sinar shutter system, and some day I may.
Lenses? Um, I'm at over a dozen now (65, 80, 90, 90, 125, 135, 165, 180, 190, 200, 210, 250, 250, 300), I can quit any time...honest!
Regarding lenses, assuming you really do want to start with a wide angle lens, wide angle on large format is somewhat challenging, so I'd suggest starting with a moderately wide lens (120, 125 or 135) instead of a 90. 135mm lenses are extremely common and often reasonably priced, 120 (Schneider) and 125 (Fuji) much less so.
About every month or two someone posts a "I want to get started in 4x5" or similar thread. The latest one is https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?157682-Interested-in-4-x-5 and you can learn a lot from that. One thing you'll learn is that if you ask 10 large format photographers what's the best (camera/lens/film/developer/etc.), you'll get 11 "definitive" answers.
Bernice Louie posted a reply that is worth reading, in that she suggests starting from the desired end result (likely a print) and working back from that to determine what lens(es) you'll want, and then based on what the kind of photographs you want and the lenses you'll use to get them, what camera to use. So many people start with the camera and then hope they'll figure it all out.
Fortunately, LF is reasonably cheap these days, so you can choose the "wrong" camera to start. If you stick with it, your first LF camera is not likely to be your last. Whether you choose a press style camera, wooden field, metal field, light "field" monorail or studio monorail, all will work fine, you'll just have to decide which works best for you.
I started with a Calumet Wood Field with a Caltar 150/5.6 in college, because that's what they had to use when I took a LF class (in 1988), and the other option was a Calumet monorail that I didn't want to lug around. I got back into LF in 2000 with a 4x5 Tachihara in cherry wood (that someone honestly thought was a video camera once), which I've since replaced in 2008 with an Ebony 45SU, which I intend on keeping as long as I'm still able to take photographs. When people see a wooden camera with bellows, they often assume it must be antique, so I just say "it's an '08" and let them guess the century.
If I had studio space, I'd get a Sinar and a Sinar shutter system, and some day I may.
Lenses? Um, I'm at over a dozen now (65, 80, 90, 90, 125, 135, 165, 180, 190, 200, 210, 250, 250, 300), I can quit any time...honest!
Regarding lenses, assuming you really do want to start with a wide angle lens, wide angle on large format is somewhat challenging, so I'd suggest starting with a moderately wide lens (120, 125 or 135) instead of a 90. 135mm lenses are extremely common and often reasonably priced, 120 (Schneider) and 125 (Fuji) much less so.
Deardorff38
Mentor
Giganova... lots of rabbit holes to peer into. Even more than smaller formats, lenses don't matter much. Latest sharpest, apo S ....meh. Any of the many makers fuji, nikon, rodenstock, schneider....will turn out fine negs. I ended up with old Dagors & G Clarons. Doesn't matter... they'll turn out fine images. A few holders, some film.... go!
fiddle
Established
I started about 4 months ago. Got a Toyo 45a, kinda heavyish, but works well. My main advice would be to make a checklist. Once you figure out the steps, make a checklist, and follow it when you are shooting. Ive ruined a bunch of shots by missing a step, not closing the lens, etc. Made one, I follow it now, starting to become second nature..
Have fun.
Have fun.
aizan
Mentor
So if you’re looking at a 90mm lens as your widest, what’s the longest lens you’ll be using? This can be the difference between choosing a technical/press view camera, a double-extension or triple-extension field camera, or a monorail, or a wide-angle field camera. Maybe you’ll need interchangeable bellows for movements, maybe you don’t. How mobile you need to be also factors in a lot.
RObert Budding
D'oh!
I'd suggest that you start with a Crown Graphic. I'm partial to the top rangefinder model, and I've never missed having a focal plane shutter (Speed Graphic). You can hand hold the camera and focus using the rangefinder. Or put it on a tripod and experiment with movements. Yes, the movements ar somewhat limited, but you can get a feel for the control that is available with movements.
The tonality of large format is striking. Good luck!
leicapixie
Well-known
My opinion is forget it!
The sheer cost of film is enormous.
Modern 35mm and of course Digital are way more fun!
Dragging a case , camera, lenses, filters, change-bag,
film holders, extra film sheets, box for exposed film, meter.
a heavy tripod, cloth to cover your head and camera to view and focus..,
Oh! need magnifier to check focus, cable release..
Sadly like Medium Format* i see very few images that interest me
I've see photos of Yosemite done with Rollei-35 Tessar that are super!
I used 4x5 as a pro, switched to 6x6 SLR (total disaster) and into Leica M3 !
Happiness..plus added 35mm SLR's 1st Pentax later Nikon F.
* My Rolleiflex Automat my "tree" camera..
The sheer cost of film is enormous.
Modern 35mm and of course Digital are way more fun!
Dragging a case , camera, lenses, filters, change-bag,
film holders, extra film sheets, box for exposed film, meter.
a heavy tripod, cloth to cover your head and camera to view and focus..,
Oh! need magnifier to check focus, cable release..
Sadly like Medium Format* i see very few images that interest me
I've see photos of Yosemite done with Rollei-35 Tessar that are super!
I used 4x5 as a pro, switched to 6x6 SLR (total disaster) and into Leica M3 !
Happiness..plus added 35mm SLR's 1st Pentax later Nikon F.
* My Rolleiflex Automat my "tree" camera..
Brian Atherton
Well-known
I used 4x5 professionally for over 25 years in advertising (architectural, industrial and studio product photography) and have fond memories using MPP, Sinar, Linhof and Arc-Swiss.
Darkroom work was fun (mostly!) using dedicated developing tanks and MPP enlargers.
It was all high-end, expensive equipment that now is selling for relatively not much. - it’s all relative, right!
Gignaova, There is a wealth of excellent advice here by RFFers in action and using 4x5 right now.
My advice would be to take your time in getting into 4x5 and when using it check, check and check again the various steps in getting your shot and later, in processing.
If you have an itch, scratch it!
Good luck.
PS As an aside I had an acquaintance who years got into 8x10, making excellent, atmospheric contact prints… until one day his tripod blew over and smashed his wooden camera and lens irreparably. Don’t skimp on a heavy tripod!
Darkroom work was fun (mostly!) using dedicated developing tanks and MPP enlargers.
It was all high-end, expensive equipment that now is selling for relatively not much. - it’s all relative, right!
Gignaova, There is a wealth of excellent advice here by RFFers in action and using 4x5 right now.
My advice would be to take your time in getting into 4x5 and when using it check, check and check again the various steps in getting your shot and later, in processing.
If you have an itch, scratch it!
Good luck.
PS As an aside I had an acquaintance who years got into 8x10, making excellent, atmospheric contact prints… until one day his tripod blew over and smashed his wooden camera and lens irreparably. Don’t skimp on a heavy tripod!