Emile de Leon
Well-known
They should develop a sensor..that eliminates the blown highlight issues..as well as the empty low values..
In recording music files..they now have 32 bit float recording..that takes 2 "images" of the music...at the same time..
#1 is for the louder parts..
And #2..is for the softer notes..
..that are usually blown out or inaudible..and hard to deal with if not impossible in the final mix..
But now..everything is recoverable..with 32 bit float recording..
Everything..!
They need to make a sensor like this..
An example of this would be..to blow out the highlights 5 to 10 stops..and still be able to work with it in post...and/or in the same frame.. underexpose the shadows 5 to 10 times...and still recover them..
I would pay 8K for that.
In recording music files..they now have 32 bit float recording..that takes 2 "images" of the music...at the same time..
#1 is for the louder parts..
And #2..is for the softer notes..
..that are usually blown out or inaudible..and hard to deal with if not impossible in the final mix..
But now..everything is recoverable..with 32 bit float recording..
Everything..!
They need to make a sensor like this..
An example of this would be..to blow out the highlights 5 to 10 stops..and still be able to work with it in post...and/or in the same frame.. underexpose the shadows 5 to 10 times...and still recover them..
I would pay 8K for that.
ptpdprinter
Mentor
Isn't this just HDR?
FrozenInTime
Well-known
That could work - e.g. if every other pixel has a ND grey overlay:
For mid levels full resolution is achieved; where a non ND pixel over exposes, the adjacent highlight pixel is used ; similarly for shadow detail.
However there might be practical issues of linearity, bleed-over and tonal noise that would need or extensive calibration to mitigate.
Computational photography - integrating multiple short exposures, may be the modern solution.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Dont know...
But 32 bit float..had just reached the consumer price range in 2019 at $650- for a 6 input/14 track unit..
Where it was only available in pro quality before..at a price..
If this was developed in the camera world..it would make a lot of expensive cams..instantly..obsolete..
FrozenInTime
Well-known
I’m not so sure... many people strive for perfection while many embrace imperfection. The hyper-real look doesn’t do it for everyone.
icebear
Mentor
Limitations of a tool or circumstances force the user to keep attention to get the most out of it. A can-do-everything tool allows the user to get sloppy.
Once you get the hang of it (not blowing those highlights) you are able to achieve great image files with shadow detail galore, what's not recorded in these shadows just isn't important ... a grey squirrel under a tree in a dark forest at night? :bang:
I read an interesting article about Beethoven's gradual loss of hearing. As he was not influenced by directly hearing other composers music, he made his own thing and the works turned out to be centuries enduring musical master pieces.
Keith Jarrett's famous Köln Concert, piano solo improvisation is the best selling album of this genre and the circumstances had been pretty bad. The concert piano scheduled to be on stage wasn't arranged due some misunderstanding of whatever poor communication and they had to get "some" available instrument on stage and somewhat get it in tune. The higher registers were still out of shape, so he had to play with a limited range and he made the best of it. Obviously the limitations helped to create a concert that made history.
Once you get the hang of it (not blowing those highlights) you are able to achieve great image files with shadow detail galore, what's not recorded in these shadows just isn't important ... a grey squirrel under a tree in a dark forest at night? :bang:
I read an interesting article about Beethoven's gradual loss of hearing. As he was not influenced by directly hearing other composers music, he made his own thing and the works turned out to be centuries enduring musical master pieces.
Keith Jarrett's famous Köln Concert, piano solo improvisation is the best selling album of this genre and the circumstances had been pretty bad. The concert piano scheduled to be on stage wasn't arranged due some misunderstanding of whatever poor communication and they had to get "some" available instrument on stage and somewhat get it in tune. The higher registers were still out of shape, so he had to play with a limited range and he made the best of it. Obviously the limitations helped to create a concert that made history.
JohnWolf
Well-known
Amen to that. I look at Jono's samples and think how nice they would be in Tri-X.
John
DwF
Well-known
Limitations of a tool or circumstances force the user to keep attention to get the most out of it. A can-do-everything tool allows the user to get sloppy.
Once you get the hang of it (not blowing those highlights) you are able to achieve great image files with shadow detail galore, what's not recorded in these shadows just isn't important ... a grey squirrel under a tree in a dark forest at night?
I read an interesting article about Beethoven's gradual loss of hearing. As he was not influenced by directly hearing other composers music, he made his own thing and the works turned out to be centuries enduring musical master pieces.
Keith Jarrett's famous Köln Concert, piano solo improvisation is the best selling album of this genre and the circumstances had been pretty bad. The concert piano scheduled to be on stage wasn't arranged due some misunderstanding of whatever poor communication and they had to get "some" available instrument on stage and somewhat get it in tune. The higher registers were still out of shape, so he had to play with a limited range and he made the best of it. Obviously the limitations helped to create a concert that made history.
Keith dealt with that lots! I was at the Village Vanguard during that time to hear him with his trio (Eddie Gomez and Paul Motian on drums). Within a few bars of the first tune, he had the tuning hammer out. Before long he gave up; end of show. I found myself ahead of him on line toward the bathroom and someone said something to the affect of "sorry the Keyboard is out of of tune" he launched into a tirade at the use of the word keyboard, versus piano. His rant was directly applicable here in that he wasn't eager to buy-in to the technology of electronic keyboard when his love was for the piano. It stuck with me, so just thought I'd share. And while I'm at it, Köln was certainly inspired but one of the great studio recordings that preceded it was Facing You. I strongly recommend that recording
Back to the subject, I agree that limitations are always there with cameras on some level. That's not a bad thing, and also the notion that an image needs to look "just as we see" quality-wise can be technology wagging the dog. It's great that we have the ability to develop an aesthetic sensibility, and it only follows that as photographers, especially ones who care to develop their artistic vision, make choices that influence the look of images they create. Just because engineers and technicians and the market place offers new options at a dizzying rate, it does not necessarily follow that the offerings are applicable to our aesthetic vision.
Myself, I am perfectly happy to continue using my MM and feel very fortunate to have it. The challenge is always nailing the exposure (maintaining the highs). The better I do, the easier I find the processing to get what or close to what I think I saw tonally and texturally and ultimately what inspired me to make the exposure. I still find my interaction with this tool if at times frustrating, to be very rewarding.
David
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
David,
I think a great image capture and clean file from a MM does just fine. In fact as you point out if you get optimum exposure the prints can have a HDR like effect of both sharpness, depth and wide tonality.
I found that Heliopan filters marked "Digital" have both IR and UV filters that reduce signals that I would call noise (non visual information). These filters marked "Digital" lower or eliminate clipping the highlights, and allow me to expose more to the right (added exposure) to capture more information. In effect they assist greatly in making these "Moby Dick" profile histograms that print so well without much post processing.
Also know that a Heliopan 2X yellow filter allows one to shoot like a large format shooter making a negative for contact printing. My logic is less aggressive post and not adding contrast say in LR minimizes digital artifacts and keeps the noise low.
The 10 band histogram supplied from the camera, along with the clipping indicators is a really great tool for nailing exposure. In the end this rather primitive and simple digital camera was some of the best money I ever spent, and it surely made me into a better photographer.
I also love the rendering. The M-246 is a superior camera in every way, but perhaps one: for me the MM and the vast midrange I get allows me to transcend formats easily. To me medium and large format the "voice" is in the midrange and it is less about contrast.
The CMOS sensors have a smoother rolloff in the highlights than the Monochrom's CCD sensor. In the shadows too the CMOS sensor captures more shadow detail than the Monochrom's CCD sensor; but where the MM excels is in the mids.
The MM is like a deadly Kung-Fu move. Not sure I need a M10M. BTW I print big 20x30 image size on 24x36.
Cal
giganova
Well-known
You have to embrace that they are digital and not even think about film look when you get a digital camera. Even though I could afford a digital Leica, incl the M10 MM, I don't like the digital b&w look and will stick to film. Bit if I ever get sick of developing film, I'll probably get one for convenience, even though 40MP is way too much and slows down the workflow. As other have said, converting digital photos that have been captured in color to b&w is not the same as a true monochrome sensor.
The only digital b&w photographer I like and can relate to is Jacob Aue Sobol who uses an MM. He uses a technique (cranked-up contrast and high gamma) that doesn't look very digital, but I understand that his esthetics is not for everyone.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Trust me..
If they put 32 bit float in new cameras..
You will be buyin them asap..
As it will increase the tonality..with less time expended..
This will be a boon to sloppier workers too..lol..
But really..there is no excuse for sloppy work..but it will save the day just in case..
32 bit float..will decrease your time in front of the computer..
Make your images better..and less cumbersome to produce..
I'm about to buy my 1st 32 bit float recorder..
It makes all the other recorders I have..obsolete..
Yes..I'm a professional musician.
But I doubt they will do this with cameras..
As in...too much to lose..dollarwise..
Just keep it the same..and make the same bux..
No need to rock the boat..
Cripple cameras..sell just as well..as advanced ones..
No need to pump research money..into a declining market..
If they put 32 bit float in new cameras..
You will be buyin them asap..
As it will increase the tonality..with less time expended..
This will be a boon to sloppier workers too..lol..
But really..there is no excuse for sloppy work..but it will save the day just in case..
32 bit float..will decrease your time in front of the computer..
Make your images better..and less cumbersome to produce..
I'm about to buy my 1st 32 bit float recorder..
It makes all the other recorders I have..obsolete..
Yes..I'm a professional musician.
But I doubt they will do this with cameras..
As in...too much to lose..dollarwise..
Just keep it the same..and make the same bux..
No need to rock the boat..
Cripple cameras..sell just as well..as advanced ones..
No need to pump research money..into a declining market..
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Emile,
I already don't spent a lot of time doing post. Really only minor tweaking.
For increased tonality I print with 7 shades of black using Piezography.
This is old stuff that is turnkey (K7 Piezography and my MM is now an 8 year old camera).
Only 18 MP and I print 20x30 image size on 24x36 sheet.
Like I said above, "Like a deadly Kung-Fu move."
Cal
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Even less than that...lol...
Trust me..you would bail in a heart beat..
DwF
Well-known
Thanks for that Cal.also use the Heliopan "digital" filter.
Your analysis is more detailed than mine. Nor have I made or seen live side-by-side prints from 246 files to make adequate comparison. I have only had prints made from my own processed MM files. Your point about the mid-range makes sense. As per your your comment about the shadow areas, and saying the MM exceeds in the mids, where there transitions are smooth, there is also an edgy quality in lows and highs in some images that strikes me as unique to the Monochrom CCD. And it's a quality that I like
icebear
Mentor
Keith dealt with that lots! I was at the Village Vanguard during that time to hear him with his trio (Eddie Gomez and Paul Motian on drums). Within a few bars of the first tune, he had the tuning hammer out. Before long he gave up; end of show. I found myself ahead of him on line toward the bathroom and someone said something to the affect of "sorry the Keyboard is out of of tune" he launched into a tirade at he use of the word keyboard, versus piano. His rant was directly applicable here in that he wasn't eager to buy-in to the technology of electronic keyboard when his love was for the piano. It stuck with me, so just thought I'd share. And while I'm at it, Köln was certainly inspired but one of the great studio recordings that preceded it was Facing You. I strongly recommend that recording
...
David
Wow to see this trio in such an intimate setting of the Vanguard must have been a unique experience. And I take it that he didn't have to complain about people taking photos ... strict no photo policy anyway.
I have only seen Keith in larger venues (Carnegie Hall & NJPAC, trio & solo). I've seen Ravi Coltrane at the Vanguard. Before the concert he was having some outside food and a beer at one of the tables at the side wall to the right. There was a photo of John Coltrane just above him. I'm not sure if he even noticed... I would have loved to take a picture of that but also didn't want to ruin the moment for him.Huss
Mentor
A really nice monochrome camera is the Oly PenF w/ its B&W modes.
It is slightly cheaper than the Leica.
DwF
Well-known
Wow to see this trio in such an intimate setting of the Vanguard must have been a unique experience. And I take it that he didn't have to complain about people taking photos ... strict no photo policy anyway.
Klaus,
I only saw him that one time that I recall in a small intimate venue but saw him in larger ones (Alice Tully and Carnegie). I did see Bill Evans at least a couple times back in the seventies at the Vanguard and was a few feet from the keyboard at least one of the times....wonderful
Back in those days, the clubs (Sweet Basil, comes to mind, and The Five Spot reopened and I saw both Ornette there but he played only his violin that night and Cecil Taylor there which brought in a who's-who crowd!David
ranger9
Well-known
I realize we're talking apples and oranges, but I concur that the Pen F is a nice way to shoot b&w. I like to use the curves controls to punch up the highlights, push down the blacks, and boost the midtown curve a bit. The results aren't as are-bure as Sobol's but they're pretty punchy. Example shoot: https://www.jlwphoto.net/American-M...n/Momentum-studio-rehearsal-with-Frank-Chaves
Incidentally, that Sobol portfolio linked above is kinda NSFW, in case anyone is planning to go have a look...
Incidentally, that Sobol portfolio linked above is kinda NSFW, in case anyone is planning to go have a look...
willie_901
Mentor
Thanks for the clarification.
I have sent you a PM that discusses shows how exposure range and dynamic range are more similar than different.
I have sent you a PM that discusses shows how exposure range and dynamic range are more similar than different.