mani
Well-known
The original analogy was not accurate because it stated people were expecting their equipment to be fixed for free. Take a look at the next part for instance: "Did Kodak give away millions of rolls of film to their customers who felt they should keep producing 126 film?"
These are inappropriate analogies because no-one is expecting to get anything for free; customers are hoping their cameras can be fixed for a reasonable and proportionate amount of money (less than five years after that camera was discontinued).
As for the figures you quote, at this stage I have no idea whether they are realistic or not - I made-up some nonsense numbers for fictional Mercedes cars and you've taken one example posted in the thread and extrapolated from another figure to make it look like an extremely generous policy. Two points:
- it's generous if the customer both wants a new camera and also if that person actually has the much greater amount of money to purchase it, instead of the cheaper option of fixing the old camera (the option that's no longer available).
Many people will be left with a brick because they can't afford the discounted cost of an entirely new replacement, whereas a sensor might have been within their means (they might even prefer the look and operation of their original camera - not everyone likes the treadmill of 'upgrades').
- the actual exchange amounts for M8s varies considerably, I've read and heard of widely differing amounts depending on all sorts of factors. One generous example in this thread isn't necessarily representative - and that ad hoc inconsistency is part of the problem with the whole exchange scheme.
Anyway I'm not going to pursue this discussion. My own disillusion with Leica's digital cameras and the entire commodity direction in which Leica is headed meant that I sold my digital Leicas and the majority of M lenses over the last couple years. It's not my fight anymore, and I'm definitely not going to go through the antipathy and trolling that seems inevitably to always accompany these sorts of discussions.
Lss
Well-known
It does not appear there is any official information available.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
So all this hand wringing and brow furrowing por nada?
I'm sure there's something to the rumor/post - I mean, after all, as Keith had mentioned, how long did people expect those Kodak sensors to remain "available" after Kodak's demise?
Regardless, it would be interesting to get something, or anything, "official", even if it's via email from Leica.
Cheers,
Dave
mani
Well-known
So all this hand wringing and brow furrowing por nada?
Just for the record, this was exactly the same scenario for the LCDs a couple years ago. IIRC it started with a couple of people mentioning the exchange offer on LUF and was followed by the usual vicious attacks until Stefan Daniel came out with an official admission by posting on the forum there.
I have no idea if the hand-wringing is as hilariously unnecessary as you suggest, but it could be a long wait if you're expecting Leica's official announcement.
Did a quick search on LUF and found what I recall was the first mention of the exchange scheme:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2144132-post15.html
It took over three weeks before Stefan Daniel confirmed the scheme on the forum there.
hepcat
Former PH, USN
Mani, I'm with you on much of this, but the facts are that the sensors were a limited-run item originally, the manufacturer is out of business, and the supply is exhausted. I don't know what folks expect. The offer to replace the camera at a discount, and in some cases a deep discount, seems to me to be a pretty significant policy.
I've had some experience with this exact sort of issue in another area: bikes. I bought a high-end, aluminum frame, dual-suspension mountain bike in 1997. It came with a manufacturer's lifetime warranty. I have dutifully maintained the warranty and sales receipt all these years. In 2012 I discovered that the frame had cracked. I called the local store that carries that brand and took it in for the warranty replacement. They called the manufacturer who said "It's HOW old? We're not going to honor that!!! We'll sell him a "crash frame" at 15% off list." Obviously, I'm not buying that company's products again...
Of course, that's not the only poor warranty experience I've ever had, but I think discounting a new product up to 60% to replace an out-of-production and out-of-warranty is an amazing offer. I don't see how you can see it any other way.
And again, if you don't see value in Leica, there's not problem there. Don't buy them again... but I don't see how attacking my choice to see value in the product is valid in any way.
For example, I bought the Fuji X-Pro1 a couple of years ago and used it for eight months. I made about 5,000 exposures with it. It is, in MY opinion, the biggest waste of engineering time and the worst use of $2,000 I'd ever spent. The camera missed focus on one shoot two out of three times while showing a focus confirmation light, and you can't focus the camera manually using the OVF. For me those are deal-breakers. I'm happy to discuss the issues I had with it for the purpose of letting other people buy it knowing what my experience was, but I don't presume to believe that Fuji as a company was trying to swindle me, is malevolent in any way, or that anyone else who buys the product is either foolish or blind. Nor am i suggesting that the product is junk. It has some limitations that didn't work out for me. That's it. And talk about depreciation!!! The $1800 MSRP X-Pro1 body has lost 2/3 of its value in two years, being widely availalbe used for around $600 now.
All products and all manufacturers suffer from defects, parts shortages, and end-of-life issues. In this case is it solely the amount of cash that one puts into these cameras that is causing so much commotion? Is there really that kind of sense of entitlement... "because I spent $X I should get...?" I don't see any other explanation.
I just don't understand the rancor and angst these issues generate for people who don't even own the equipment, and why it seems to be necessary for folks to condemn the product for merely having a natural lifespan, and the company for making what amounts to a pretty good solution to an otherwise unsolvable problem.
mani
Well-known
I'm certainly not angry and I'm not condemning anyone's choices, in any way whatsoever (not sure where you got that idea??). I just felt it was unfair to characterize people's responses as though they were expecting a free fix for their cameras in the event they went wrong, when all they might want is to be able to service and maintain those cameras for a reasonable time.
A lot of people might be angry because they may have bought a Leica hoping it would be a long-term camera for them, rather than the standard upgrade treadmill of cheaper brands. I guess they'll be hoping that nothing goes wrong, but the uncertainty is there - and especially worrying for those who can't afford to drop three or four thousand on a totally new camera, when their LCD stops functioning or their sensor craps out.
In other news, not really sure why a lot of people are blaming Kodak for Leica's failure to purchase enough sensors to maintain the cameras for ten years either? I guess blaming Kodak for pretty much everything is an easy target. They didn't even own Truesense back when the M8 was the current model.
Anyway, let's all hold our breath and wait for the official announcement (or denial). It should come along in under a month or so, if we're lucky.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
I would certainly think that it would be in Leitz's best interest to keep this quiet. If something should go wrong with your M8, you send it for repair, and Leitz says it can't be fixed, but offers you at a very attractive discount, a M9, M-E, or a M-240, would you willingly refuse? Yes, I know in the end you will be spending more money than on a replacement sensor. But you are getting an item that theoretically has a longer lifespan and still can be repaired for the foreseeable future.
hepcat
Former PH, USN
Un-met (and often unreasonable) expectations are the #1 cause of consumer dissatisfaction. I suspect that more people read the advertising hype than read the warranty fine print. What constitutes a "reasonable time," or "long term camera" for example? Is it reasonable for every camera manufactured to reach it's shutter's MTBF projections, for example? I certainly hope my Ms will reach 150k clicks before I have to look at a shutter replacement... but I'm pragmatic and I realize that MTBF is just that... mean time between failures.
I guess it depends on why you bought the M8 in the first place. I would gather that people who are buying M8s right now are not comfortable buying a M9 for whatever reason. The Leica discount isn't that huge (IIRC) ... so it may still not be a comfortable purchase for the M8 owner... who is now left with a paperweight.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
This is fact.
Managing customer/client expectations is extremely important in retaining and gaining customers. "Under promise and over deliver" is one way of dealing with it but there are many others.
Cheers,
Dave
kbg32
neo-romanticist
ATTENTION ATTENTION
BREAKING NEWS FROM LEITZ
Just received this email from Leitz New Jersey;
"Good Morning,
Yes, we have sensor to replace for the M8’s camera. If you are having an issue please ship the camera into us for service / repair.
Please send it to: Leica Camera, Inc., 1 Pearl Court, Unit A, Allendale, NJ 07401
We recommend shipping via UPS or Federal Express or whatever is most convenient for you. Include a note with your name, address and daytime phone number and a brief description of what you would like to have repaired.
If it is a recently purchased item, please include a copy of your sales receipt. An estimate or a warranty repair notice will be mailed to you in approximately 2 to 3 days after we receive the equipment. Please allow a few more days for the mail to reach you. Make a note of the serial number for your records.
If you need more info you can contact Roxana or Carmen in Repair Customer Service...................."
So there you have it straight from Leitz. Take it for whatever it is worth.
End of transmission.
BREAKING NEWS FROM LEITZ
Just received this email from Leitz New Jersey;
"Good Morning,
Yes, we have sensor to replace for the M8’s camera. If you are having an issue please ship the camera into us for service / repair.
Please send it to: Leica Camera, Inc., 1 Pearl Court, Unit A, Allendale, NJ 07401
We recommend shipping via UPS or Federal Express or whatever is most convenient for you. Include a note with your name, address and daytime phone number and a brief description of what you would like to have repaired.
If it is a recently purchased item, please include a copy of your sales receipt. An estimate or a warranty repair notice will be mailed to you in approximately 2 to 3 days after we receive the equipment. Please allow a few more days for the mail to reach you. Make a note of the serial number for your records.
If you need more info you can contact Roxana or Carmen in Repair Customer Service...................."
So there you have it straight from Leitz. Take it for whatever it is worth.
End of transmission.
hepcat
Former PH, USN
Oh, boy Kieth!!! Shakespeare was truly ahead of his time... "Much ado about nothing."
I can't wait for the posts now... "the right hand just doesn't know what the left is doing," "they just don't want to provoke a panic!" <grin>
Thanks for the update.
On edit:
this from Wikipedia: "Much Ado About Nothing is generally considered one of Shakespeare's best comedies, because it combines elements of robust hilarity with more serious meditations on honor, shame, and court politics."
I can't wait for the posts now... "the right hand just doesn't know what the left is doing," "they just don't want to provoke a panic!" <grin>
Thanks for the update.
On edit:
this from Wikipedia: "Much Ado About Nothing is generally considered one of Shakespeare's best comedies, because it combines elements of robust hilarity with more serious meditations on honor, shame, and court politics."
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Thanks Keith!!
That should answer Stephen's initial question.
Thread closed.
Nothing to see here.
Move along.
Cheers,
Dave
That should answer Stephen's initial question.
Thread closed.
Nothing to see here.
Move along.
Cheers,
Dave
mani
Well-known
I really hope this is true. I think certainly for a lot of people on this forum the whole camera thing is a bit of a lark and problems that arise - sometimes real and maybe sometimes imagined - are all just a laugh.
But I know from my own experience that it's not like that for all of us: when the M8 LCD problem arose, I was in the position as a relatively new parent of both being at my lowest income-level for years at the same time as most needing a reliable camera. If anything had happened to my M8 at that point, I just wouldn't have been able to justify another 7 or 8 thousand dollars (prices are higher in Sweden) for a digital replacement. Not everyone buys and dumps cameras on a regular cycle.
So let's keep our fingers crossed that Stephen got it wrong on this one.
raid
Dad Photographer
This is good to know.
Thank you for checking it out, Keith.
Thank you for checking it out, Keith.
I too hope Leica has M8/8.2 sensors for years to come,
but its strange that I have been hearing the same story from different sources.
Time will tell.
Stephen
but its strange that I have been hearing the same story from different sources.
Time will tell.
Stephen
kbg32
neo-romanticist
Stephen, it could be corporate speak.... but, in the end, you'll have a "newer" camera!