jamin-b
Well-known
The love/hate thing with Leica never ceases to amuse....
The love/hate thing with Leica never ceases to amuse....
I bought an M8 a couple of years ago on eBay and after reading about the UV/IR filter issue, wrote to Leica in Germany explaining that I had just bought the camera second hand and would appreciate receiving the filters, even though the camera was no longer under warranty and hadn't been bought from them. They sent over two new filters for free, postage paid, as though it were the most natural thing in the world. Who else would do that?!
The love/hate thing with Leica never ceases to amuse....
I bought an M8 a couple of years ago on eBay and after reading about the UV/IR filter issue, wrote to Leica in Germany explaining that I had just bought the camera second hand and would appreciate receiving the filters, even though the camera was no longer under warranty and hadn't been bought from them. They sent over two new filters for free, postage paid, as though it were the most natural thing in the world. Who else would do that?!
pixelated
Established
Electronics will not last indefinitely, but neither do mechanical devices. Happily the nature of mechanical stuff makes repair somewhat more feasible, especially when components may need to be specially fabricated.
The earliest Leica's did not come with guarantees that the film for the cameras would be available 80 or 100 years later, and there are plenty of functioning 100 year old cameras for which film is not available. It's really just a coincidence that you can still buy 35mm film for an 80 year old Leica, and that we're likely to be able to for some time to come.
That M8's may enjoy a much shorter lifetime than some of their non-electronic brethren is not a very happy fact, but it's the fate of pretty much every camera ever made, sooner or later.
The earliest Leica's did not come with guarantees that the film for the cameras would be available 80 or 100 years later, and there are plenty of functioning 100 year old cameras for which film is not available. It's really just a coincidence that you can still buy 35mm film for an 80 year old Leica, and that we're likely to be able to for some time to come.
That M8's may enjoy a much shorter lifetime than some of their non-electronic brethren is not a very happy fact, but it's the fate of pretty much every camera ever made, sooner or later.
Black
Photographer.
Black
Photographer.
Since when does "crappy ISO" equate to High ISO of RAW files? What would you regard as High ISO?
Anyway,
http://bit.ly/1hgkwSD
Happy reading
Monochrom
Well-known
But why should leica still make these sensors? 7 years in digital technology is a lot of time, making it maybe not possible anymore.
The m8 is still a nice camera that may last for several years!
i don´t think the failure ratio is enough high to keep the sensor in production.
The m8 is still a nice camera that may last for several years!
i don´t think the failure ratio is enough high to keep the sensor in production.
hepcat
Former PH, USN
Wow... people... it's a camera body. It's an expendable.
How many of you folks, besides me, who have posted to this thread currently own and use an M8? If you don't, then I don't see that you have a dog in this fight and I think it's a little premature to extrapolate the parts availability of the M8 to the M9 series. Despite the similarities in appearance, they're very different cameras internally.
If you don't like the business model Leica uses, then don't spend your money on their products. Cameras have a service life. All consumer goods do, advertising aside. That the Leica film bodies are still going after 75 years +/- is great, but to expect anything more than 10 years out of a digital anything isn't realistic. How many of you kept and used your Apple II or original IBM PC 8086 machines for 10 years? Most of them didn't last three in service. As the technology matures, the MTBF service life will lengthen because the technology becomes more reliable, and the mean time between significant improvement iterations lengthens, but a seven year run for a 2006 digital camera is pretty darn good. And frankly, MY M8 is still chugging along just fine. And when it doesn't I'll see what Leica is offering. Try to send you old broken Canikon in to the manufacturer for a discount on a new one and see what you get?
They're good, solid, albeit quirky, equipment from a solid manufacturer. That's life in the fast lane. I'm not necessarily defending the company, and Stephen's post as the OP was informative, but the angst here is a little over the top.
How many of you folks, besides me, who have posted to this thread currently own and use an M8? If you don't, then I don't see that you have a dog in this fight and I think it's a little premature to extrapolate the parts availability of the M8 to the M9 series. Despite the similarities in appearance, they're very different cameras internally.
If you don't like the business model Leica uses, then don't spend your money on their products. Cameras have a service life. All consumer goods do, advertising aside. That the Leica film bodies are still going after 75 years +/- is great, but to expect anything more than 10 years out of a digital anything isn't realistic. How many of you kept and used your Apple II or original IBM PC 8086 machines for 10 years? Most of them didn't last three in service. As the technology matures, the MTBF service life will lengthen because the technology becomes more reliable, and the mean time between significant improvement iterations lengthens, but a seven year run for a 2006 digital camera is pretty darn good. And frankly, MY M8 is still chugging along just fine. And when it doesn't I'll see what Leica is offering. Try to send you old broken Canikon in to the manufacturer for a discount on a new one and see what you get?
They're good, solid, albeit quirky, equipment from a solid manufacturer. That's life in the fast lane. I'm not necessarily defending the company, and Stephen's post as the OP was informative, but the angst here is a little over the top.
froyd
Mentor
Chris,
I think if you scan past threads you'll see plenty of examples of Leica providing exceptional customer service to owner of M long out of warranty or purchased second hand.
As noted above, their currently produced film cameras can potentially be lifetime cameras. Their electronics are pretty simple and I have seen SLRs from over 30 years ago with LEDs and LCS still working. Digital? We'll see, but other manufacturers have had digital cameras on the used market for over 10 years (e.g. R-D1), and they seem to be going strong. Their death might be cause not by malfunction but the lack of availability for batteries or something similar.
ChrisLivsey
Mentor
Phase One greatly improved high iso, although in MFBD high is a relative term, in capture One v7 over previous ones. The improvement was to all legacy backs as well as current. Other parameters were also improved, all these visibly so not just in numbers.
ChrisLivsey
Mentor
Actually the M8 selling at around £1,000 has held its value. A Hasselblad H3D39 from 2008 sold for £22,000 and is now around £3,500 and that is with lens which can sell for around £1,000 on its own. The H3DII39 was reduced to around £12,000 for a fairer comparison, but people did pay £22,000 at that time.
sig
Well-known
http://www.overgaard.dk/pdf/M-System_Brochure_en.pdf
Not many things last a lifetime. A Leica M often lasts
longer Anyone taking photographs is normally at the heart of life. In the heat or cold, in the rain or dust. The M needs to be durable, reliable and robust under all conceivable conditions. The question of durability is always a top priority in the development of a new M model. This is why only premium materials are used for its body : brass for the top and base plate and a high-strength magnesium alloy for the chassis. The digital technology components are also carefully selected to with- stand years of use. Sophisticated production techniques and painstaking assembly guarantee decades of reliable operation, allowing photog- raphers to enjoy their Leica M for as long as possible. For a lifetime in fact, often even by the next generation
Not many things last a lifetime. A Leica M often lasts
longer Anyone taking photographs is normally at the heart of life. In the heat or cold, in the rain or dust. The M needs to be durable, reliable and robust under all conceivable conditions. The question of durability is always a top priority in the development of a new M model. This is why only premium materials are used for its body : brass for the top and base plate and a high-strength magnesium alloy for the chassis. The digital technology components are also carefully selected to with- stand years of use. Sophisticated production techniques and painstaking assembly guarantee decades of reliable operation, allowing photog- raphers to enjoy their Leica M for as long as possible. For a lifetime in fact, often even by the next generation
doolittle
Well-known
I would hazard a guess Leica will offer a similar upgrade deal to the one available to M8s affected by the coffee stain issue.
Gid
Well-known
If your avatar depicts you then it seems you are not a teenager anymore. Still believe in advertising?
You'll be telling me that Father Christmas doesn't exist next
As to my avatar, I have to admit that it is me, but not with a Leica.
Pioneer
Mentor
Proclamations of doom and gloom for all digital cameras is common fare for lots of threads.
That is a myth and has no basis in fact. Why shouldn't I expect a digital camera to last for 20 years?
My Pentax *ist DS is 10 years old this year and still going strong. Since it uses AA batteries I actually expect this one to last longer than most.
My Canon 5D (original) will turn 8 years old this year and is still faithfully chugging right along. Since it was a VERY popular camera I suspect the rechargeable batteries will remain available from 3rd parties as long as there is a market for them.
My Leica M9 is still working well and I bought it a little less than two years ago expecting it to last for a very long time. Since Leica has had the sense (or good fortune) to use the same battery in their M8, M8.2, M9 and ME then there is a chance that the battery will also remain available for a long time. I hope so.
Unexpected failure is always a possibility with anything, but it certainly is not something that has to happen. If you take care of your equipment, use it regularly and clean it whenever it needs it, then it should last a very long time, even (surprise) 20 or 30 years.
However, because of the massive marketing drives of the manufacturers people consider these cameras "obsolete" within two or three years. It just seems obvious that after 10 years at the outside that these digitals are ready for the dustbin. But it really isn't obsolete unless you can't get the pictures you want.
The Achilles heel for a lot of digital cameras is probably the battery. All batteries have a finite life and because most camera manufacturers are using purpose-built, rechargeable batteries, some of these cameras will go the way of the dodo bird, but not because of any fault with the camera itself.
Besides, it isn't like they are going to run out of film!
That is a myth and has no basis in fact. Why shouldn't I expect a digital camera to last for 20 years?
My Pentax *ist DS is 10 years old this year and still going strong. Since it uses AA batteries I actually expect this one to last longer than most.
My Canon 5D (original) will turn 8 years old this year and is still faithfully chugging right along. Since it was a VERY popular camera I suspect the rechargeable batteries will remain available from 3rd parties as long as there is a market for them.
My Leica M9 is still working well and I bought it a little less than two years ago expecting it to last for a very long time. Since Leica has had the sense (or good fortune) to use the same battery in their M8, M8.2, M9 and ME then there is a chance that the battery will also remain available for a long time. I hope so.
Unexpected failure is always a possibility with anything, but it certainly is not something that has to happen. If you take care of your equipment, use it regularly and clean it whenever it needs it, then it should last a very long time, even (surprise) 20 or 30 years.
However, because of the massive marketing drives of the manufacturers people consider these cameras "obsolete" within two or three years. It just seems obvious that after 10 years at the outside that these digitals are ready for the dustbin. But it really isn't obsolete unless you can't get the pictures you want.
The Achilles heel for a lot of digital cameras is probably the battery. All batteries have a finite life and because most camera manufacturers are using purpose-built, rechargeable batteries, some of these cameras will go the way of the dodo bird, but not because of any fault with the camera itself.
Besides, it isn't like they are going to run out of film!
presspass
filmshooter
I have had an M8 since they came out and, so far, it's been a good camera. Mine has developed a peculiarity and tries to recock the shutter several times, but with patience, it works. I bought it so I didn't have to cart DSLRs around when I was film shooting, just in case I needed a color photo. I had the, apparently false, expectation that a company that had touted the longevity of its equipment would stick by its customers. It became clear some time ago that my impression was the problem. Leica makes nice stuff. It just doesn't support its customers any better than Canon or Nikon.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Leica..the maker of..future malevolent...doorstops..and hocky ..pucks...hahaha!
Roger Hicks
Mentor
Which was the reason for my original question: why? My M8 (2006) is still fine. So's my M9. Some people seem to want to believe that Leicas (in particular) will be worthless junk in two or three years. Yes. A very few will. Most won't. That's what I meant by "malevolent fantasies".
Cheers,
R.
hendriphile
Well-known
1+
My Coolpix 3700 is 10 years old, works fine up to 8 x 10". The main challenge today is to find replacement memory cards with a small enough memory.
Mcary
Well-known
Final Jeopardy: Answer "1 Day"
Question: How many days after a new digital camera is released do people on camera forums start posting about its replacement.
raid
Dad Photographer
The only "problem" with such a sensor death and burial is the price of the M8. If it had been a $450 camera, there would be less said here. Maybe this suggests that due to yearly innovations in digital technology, we should not buy an expensive digital camera.
I am crossing my fingers on my M8 and M9. If both fail, I will go back to film cameras.
I am crossing my fingers on my M8 and M9. If both fail, I will go back to film cameras.
All, let's keep this on topic and forget about the arguments that aren't about the M8's sensor. Thanks.