Sure, in specific situations CDAF can be quite accurate and speedy (especially with smaller m43 sensors with lenses of not much mass.) I have serious doubts about the tele zoom for the SL, especially if it is as massive as the 24-90. There is a reason other high-end mirrorless have phase detect sensors, it's not just a marketing gimmick.
With regards to battery life, I've gotten a couple of thousand shots with mirrorless before, when shooting high speed sequences, but it's not about shot count, it's about how long the sensor is powered. It's very easy to get only 300 out of the same battery when shooting at a more leisurely pace. DSLRs don't power the sensor all the time, so you should be getting quite a bit more life out of your Nikon batt. I know mine gets far more than that. I haven't bothered to buy a spare cell for it, even.
Anyone who wants to carry a $4k zoom of that size and weight all day (kind of the point of a wide to short-tele zoom) more power to them; might want to order a Sherpa along with it.
Although again, I don't think this bodes well for Leica from a financial perspective. Seems like quite a bit of tooling and engineering expense for a lens that is not likely to be purchased in sufficient numbers.
With regards to battery life, I've gotten a couple of thousand shots with mirrorless before, when shooting high speed sequences, but it's not about shot count, it's about how long the sensor is powered. It's very easy to get only 300 out of the same battery when shooting at a more leisurely pace. DSLRs don't power the sensor all the time, so you should be getting quite a bit more life out of your Nikon batt. I know mine gets far more than that. I haven't bothered to buy a spare cell for it, even.
Anyone who wants to carry a $4k zoom of that size and weight all day (kind of the point of a wide to short-tele zoom) more power to them; might want to order a Sherpa along with it.
Although again, I don't think this bodes well for Leica from a financial perspective. Seems like quite a bit of tooling and engineering expense for a lens that is not likely to be purchased in sufficient numbers.
willie_901
Mentor
There is no PDAF.
It is possible the high-performance of the EVF and LCD, combined with a very quick in-camera CPU and clever firmware algorithms, eliminates the need for PDAF. Still, existing CDAF technologies rely increased lens mechanical movements to compute focus. The size of those zoom lenses could mean a relatively high mass of glass to move.
CDAF is accurate, but accurate focus on an unintended object with higher contrast than the desired object isn't useful. At this point we can assume Leica has engineered a system that eliminates the disadvantages of current CDAF implementations. This would not be a trivial accomplishment. The widespread use of CD AF on inexpensive cameras with tiny sensors succeeded because practically all of them had small lenses with maximum apertures that delivered wide DOF. The reduced plastic lens mass and deep DOF was well-suited to CDAF.
The SL-601 is just the opposite. The sensor area is large, there are more megapixels and the lens resolution is high. So the demands for excellent PDAF performance is
It is also possible the reported quality of the EVF/LCD technologies means manual focusing using the lens collar is superior to other mirrorless (and reflex) digital brands.
Fujifilm's reputation was tarnished when the X100 was first released because they used a relatively slow CPU and ported PDAF in-camera code from their P&S line into a camera with a larger sensor and a faster, higher quality lens. Many early adapters (myself included) were completely unfamiliar with CDAF and initially struggled to adapt to the system.
Eventually CDAF will be smart enough and fast enough to overtake traditional PDAF for all photographic situations. It takes a lot of computing power and some very smart algorithms to do this, and synchronicity with the hardware (i.e., internal focusing lenses to reduce the moving mass, etc.) PDAF has inherent advantages which is why newer mirrorless cameras have phase detect pixels. This is a serious omission from the SL, in my opinion...
Re: X100, I think you meant to type 'ported CDAF.'
Re: X100, I think you meant to type 'ported CDAF.'
Doesn't assigning dedicated pixels to PDAF duty reduce resolution of the sensor?
No. Fuji was the first company to implement phase detect on sensor. The number of pixels used for phase detect is miniscule compared to the total number of megapixels of the sensor. Sony has patented a system which uses two layers, top layer for RGB and bottom layer for phase detect. This means the entire area of the sensor can be a phase detect point...
On-sensor PDAF also needs no calibration, unlike DSLR PDAF.
On-sensor PDAF also needs no calibration, unlike DSLR PDAF.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
My E-M1 does have the PDAF sencells and does focus the large and heavyweight FourThirds zooms very effectively, lens most certainly not designed for CDAF. They focus faster with the E-M1 than they did with the last pro-grade Olympus DSLR, the E-5. What is fascinating, however, is that the E-PL7 without the PDAF Magic does darn near as well with the same lenses.
The new pro lenses in the Olympus line, however, are designed for CDAF, just as these new lenses for the SL are. They focus even faster than the old pro-grade lenses do. I expect that the real performance of the SL and its new lenses will be indistinguishable from any other well-designed, well-implemented top-end DSLR in practical terms. Remember, it's not whether you have PDAF or CDAF or XYCT that matters: it's how well you make the system work.
Same for the battery and power management. I've never gotten less than 700 exposures out of a charge with the E-M1, in three years and over 30,000 exposures trying. I'm not, as I said before, much of an exposure machine gunner. The camera takes care of shutting down power consumption when not needed effectively and yet is always ready when I need it to be. Good design, well implemented ... Efficiency. I suspect the same will be true of the SL.
What lens whomever chooses to carry, that's up to them. That big heavy lump of a Canon lens that I sold? The guy who bought it is a friend of mine. He's been using it every day on the succession of Canons he's owned ever since; loves it. Who am I to judge?
What I really recommend is to not let your preconceptions and biases get in the way. Try to see through them and judge the cameras, when they're out in the field being used, rather than judging it based on incomplete information and preconceptions that aren't very reflective of reality.
I can tell already that the SL will do what I want, limited and simple though it may be, even if it fails utterly at other stuff that isn't of major importance to me. And that's what's important and motivates my dishing out the money for it, substantial as it might be. I'll know whether it was worth it a bit later...
G
Of course, if it works for you, that's all that matters.
My point was, it is doubtful there are enough multiples of you for this to be a financial success to Leica. I hope it is, but it's definitely not for me, even if it were 1/4 the price...and this isn't based on preconceptions, but it is based on biases...or more precisely, preferences; i.e., nix on the unnecessary heft.
The S2 dropped precipitously from it's initial MSRP (at resale), it will be interesting to see what happens with the SL.
My point was, it is doubtful there are enough multiples of you for this to be a financial success to Leica. I hope it is, but it's definitely not for me, even if it were 1/4 the price...and this isn't based on preconceptions, but it is based on biases...or more precisely, preferences; i.e., nix on the unnecessary heft.
The S2 dropped precipitously from it's initial MSRP (at resale), it will be interesting to see what happens with the SL.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Of course, if it works for you, that's all that matters.
My point was, it is doubtful there are enough multiples of you for this to be a financial success to Leica. I hope it is, but it's definitely not for me, even if it were 1/4 the price...and this isn't based on preconceptions, but it is based on biases...or more precisely, preferences; i.e., nix on the unnecessary heft.
The S2 dropped precipitously from it's initial MSRP (at resale), it will be interesting to see what happens with the SL.
Based on what three dealers told me today, there is a reasonable demand for it already. Got my preorders in .. Whomever gets one for me first, gets the gold.
The body's heft is just right for R lenses, IMO. I'm not a zoom lens guy and won't buy that lens.
G
Emile de Leon
Well-known
I hope Leica doesn't lose their shirt on this..
Looks like a nice cam though...
I just cant see that many people investing in it..
And in 6 to 12 mos...there will be copies right in there w/Leica..
At 1/2 the cost..
I just don't see this working for them..
But who knows..
Looks like a nice cam though...
I just cant see that many people investing in it..
And in 6 to 12 mos...there will be copies right in there w/Leica..
At 1/2 the cost..
I just don't see this working for them..
But who knows..
f16sunshine
Moderator
If they don't populate the lens stable quickly it may well be a strange case of an orphan body (in Digital times, we seem to be used to having orphan lenses).
Aside from a small population of online gear heads, not too many photographers are into using lenses that are non-native.
Unless I missed something since the original anouncement,..There are 3 lenses on the roadmap for this camera. Two are zooms.
Not very satisfying as a consumer feel good pill or comprehensive as a profeesional platform.
Maybe there are some optics. Leica would be wise to "leak" out some specs before too long.
There is always initial demand for Leica gear, especially gear that works with lenses already in the field, and there is plenty of that...
I see low mileage S2s are now in the $5k range, from authorized dealers. If I were looking for something bigger than big, that's what I'd be looking at...with one of their AF Contax lens adapters. I sold one of those systems a couple of years ago to a local pro, it's an excellent handling medium format system especially for that price range...
I see low mileage S2s are now in the $5k range, from authorized dealers. If I were looking for something bigger than big, that's what I'd be looking at...with one of their AF Contax lens adapters. I sold one of those systems a couple of years ago to a local pro, it's an excellent handling medium format system especially for that price range...
It will take a while for the SL lens line to fill out. I understand the 50 Summilux is a year away, no other lenses even mentioned yet.
I wonder if the "best" answer to this lack now is the S lens lineup. It has taken a while for these lenses to come on the market, but now they're here, and they supposedly will work with a smart adapter "as native" on the SL.
There are 24, 30, 35, 45, 70, 100, 120, 185, and 30-90 zoom available that could be very useful on the SL, with exquisite quality. Yes, they're large and heavy, but so are the SL lenses! So there's no big shortage of AF lenses at this point, especially if we include some Contax 645 and Hasselblad ones too.
I probably won't be an SL buyer, though I already have three lenses "for it", the 35, 70, and 100 S lenses... And a bunch of P67 lenses that can also adapt to the S-SL adapter.
I wonder if the "best" answer to this lack now is the S lens lineup. It has taken a while for these lenses to come on the market, but now they're here, and they supposedly will work with a smart adapter "as native" on the SL.
There are 24, 30, 35, 45, 70, 100, 120, 185, and 30-90 zoom available that could be very useful on the SL, with exquisite quality. Yes, they're large and heavy, but so are the SL lenses! So there's no big shortage of AF lenses at this point, especially if we include some Contax 645 and Hasselblad ones too.
I probably won't be an SL buyer, though I already have three lenses "for it", the 35, 70, and 100 S lenses...
And a bunch of P67 lenses that can also adapt to the S-SL adapter.
f16sunshine
Moderator
It will take a while for the SL lens line to fill out. I understand the 50 Summilux is a year away, no other lenses even mentioned yet.
I wonder if the "best" answer to this lack now is the S lens lineup. It has taken a while for these lenses to come on the market, but now they're here, and they supposedly will work with a smart adapter "as native" on the SL.
There are 24, 30, 35, 45, 70, 100, 120, 185, and 30-90 zoom available that could be very useful on the SL, with exquisite quality. Yes, they're large and heavy, but so are the SL lenses! So there's no big shortage of AF lenses at this point, especially if we include some Contax 645 and Hasselblad ones too.
I probably won't be an SL buyer, though I already have three lenses "for it", the 35, 70, and 100 S lenses...
Interesting. Having no real need for it, I did not know that there was a Contax 645 adapter for the S.
The 2f.8/140mm from that system was fantastic! If I remember it had a little bit of a long minumum Focus Distance. Otherwise gorgeous for portraits. Interesting times for photographers.
From what I see on other forums, S camera users are pretty pleased with the Contax 645 lenses. I don't have any of those but I've found the Pentax67 lenses are pretty good on the S, some really excellent. But of course manual focus (with the AF aid in the viewfinder helping) and manual stop-down aperture with an Auto-Manual switch on the lenses like the M42 Takumars. A bit inconvenient, but they fill in on otherwise absent focal lengths.
uhoh7
Mentor
You are one of those guys who orders from multiple dealers, then cancels all but one order.
Why am I not surprised?
lynnb
Mentor
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I'll wait for the monochrome version .... thanks!
Godfrey
somewhat colored
You are one of those guys who orders from multiple dealers, then cancels all but one order.
Why am I not surprised?
I don't like to be insulted and accused of foul play.
Yes, I call my dealer friends, explain to them that I'm looking to get one as quickly as possible, place an order with them on the proviso that if another order comes in earlier I will cancel.
The dealers put in a stocking order. They don't know when or how many they'll get in. My position on their list is irrelevant, because they might or might not get what they order, and might or might not get any before or after another dealer.
So we're both playing the same game of roulette. They each don't know when they'll have stock or how much (their order is not derivative of my order), and I don't know specifically where on their queues I am or which can deliver first. They and I both agree to play the game, and all of them know I'm a good customer who will visit and buy again. If any are uncomfortable with doing this, because they are basing orders on the incoming requests, they tell me and I don't place a preorder unless they want me to.
It's a perfectly fair and equitable arrangement, committed to with full transparency on both sides of the transaction. So the next time you want to insult me, make sure you understand what you're talking about beforehand.
G
Godfrey
somewhat colored
FA Limited
missing in action
the best mirrorless focusing now is probably by panasonic with their DFD techonology (no PDAF!). maybe some of that has trickled into the leica SL