colker
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1.7k for a used body? A cosina made camera just like a Nikon FM2? Is it that much better made than a FM2?
New ZIs were 1.425 dollars.
A used Leica M6 in very good condition is around 1.6k... but a new Leica is way more expensive than ZI cameras ever were.
Something does not make sense here.
New ZIs were 1.425 dollars.
A used Leica M6 in very good condition is around 1.6k... but a new Leica is way more expensive than ZI cameras ever were.
Something does not make sense here.
Archlich
Well-known
Got my second one 2 years ago, from fellow RFF member, for $800. The first one 8 years ago was around the same price. It's been like that for many years, even after the production ceased, until recently.
They didn't sell much of these in the first place, but I don't think the current price is justifiable. And you may have noticed, an used M6 was like $1-1.2k not long ago. Some irrational factors are driving the demand, which in turn has driven the price up. I assume it's part of the very trend that had made the then $600-800 Contax T3 as expensive as it is today.
The ZI itself is an excellent camera, little doubt in that. You'll find few cameras, even a Leica, being that much better than a FM2 anyway...
They didn't sell much of these in the first place, but I don't think the current price is justifiable. And you may have noticed, an used M6 was like $1-1.2k not long ago. Some irrational factors are driving the demand, which in turn has driven the price up. I assume it's part of the very trend that had made the then $600-800 Contax T3 as expensive as it is today.
The ZI itself is an excellent camera, little doubt in that. You'll find few cameras, even a Leica, being that much better than a FM2 anyway...
colker
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Agree on all counts. The used camera marketplace is pretty irrational; how much is a Nikon f6??? Does a slightly used Nikon f6 sell for 1.800 us dollars? The F6 is hard to top. Ok... a ranfgefinder is a different camera but an inflated price is an inflated price.
A used ZI should sell now for 800 and that´s already pushing it.. 30% of new at the counter is the usual in most other markets so $500 is it. As excellent as a ZI i will put my money on a Leica M just for the charisma alone. I know ZIs are excellent tools but i will pay the price of tools.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Ebay "sold" shows them to be sold for less. Just above 1K.
1.7K listing might have lens attached to it.
R series are FM10 Cosina made, not FM2, with RF somewhat slapped on it.
But even they are sold close to 1K mark now.
It makes sense, actually. According to reputable sources film is resurrected. But only new film RF are Leica made.
1.7K listing might have lens attached to it.
R series are FM10 Cosina made, not FM2, with RF somewhat slapped on it.
But even they are sold close to 1K mark now.
It makes sense, actually. According to reputable sources film is resurrected. But only new film RF are Leica made.
colker
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1k is already expensive for a just CLAed M2 in beautiful shape.. but due to the status and history of this camera it´s acceptable . A Cosina made Voightlander?? Makes zero sense.
Inflated prices will do nothing for street photography, rebirth of film and rangefinder love; nothing. Inflated prices make any idea look silly.
In the face of those prices a film SLR like a Nikon F series w/ Nikon lenses look like a serious, pro camera system to go with.
jawarden
Well-known
It's the only camera I own that would be replaced immediately if it died. It's a really good camera. The only downside from my perspective is the reliance on electronics; if the batteries die or if there is an electronic gremlin the camera won't work. It would have been a better camera if it could at least function without batteries, but oh well. I prefer it to Leica.
Almost all film cameras are reasonably priced now imho. Even at $1600 if you assume 5 years of use before a CLA that's a good return on enjoyment for the price (assuming you think a $1600 camera from any brand is acceptable)
colker
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No... prices of used film cameras are all over the place. SLRs, 35mm of medium format, are dirt cheap and its lenses are even cheaper.
Some rangefinder brands are being hyped up. A Leica has always been expensive but a Cosina made camera costing more than new? More than a Leica M6, M5, M4? No way.
I understand the ZI is a great camera and i would not bother w/ this thread if it wasn´t... but the price is hyped up and way out of any sense.
Btw... at those prices it should not die. It should be as everlasting as a Leica.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
No, it is just the simple economic law of pricing being set by supply vs. demand, nothing else.
If you don't want to buy at the current pricing, then don't. If you don't want to sell at the current pricing, then don't. No need to complicate a simple situation.
What makes you think it is an FM2?
And now there are no new ones... so, prices have gone up.
And?
Makes sense to me...this simply sounds like you want a Zi and don`t want to pay the going price.
jawarden
Well-known
Well it's a matter of degree. The prices may be "all over the place" but are still reasonable to me. I spend considerable time walking the city with my camera and enjoying myself, and my time is worth something. My photography expenditures as a whole probably cost me less than seeing a movie every week, despite the cost of the camera. Relatively speaking this is a pretty inexpensive hobby, even if you buy on the high end. (assuming you don't buy cameras all the time of course. I tend to buy and use my cameras for years.)
rajmohan-fotograf
rajmohan
I beg to differ. Ultimately, the market (demand vs supply) determines the average price, except for rare outlier cases. The ZI is a well made, metered RF camera with a lovely VF/RF (which in particular has excellent eye relief for the bespectacled - better than any M body until the M10, in my estimation) - so it is no surprise that it is desired. Whether the market prices are acceptable to any given person is up to said individual.
colker
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I want a ZI just like I want a lot of cameras and the ZI is not even remotely at the top of my list.
Did i say it is an FM2? It is made by the same factory w/ the same type of shutter and construction. Aluminum, light. So yeah.. it´s a good comparison. Not to mention the Nikon FM2 is a legendary camera on its own. Right?
"There is no new ZIs so the price must go up".. have a look at eBay and check prices for Pentax 67, Nikon F3 and other SLRs which are not made anymore.. Try your reasoning and see if it sticks. It doesn´t.
Swift1
Mentor
Bob nailed it.
colker
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Thing is.. i see a lot of interest in Leicas. A lot of people buying and yet you don´t see that many being offered. When it is being offered, it sells.
I don´t see ZIs being touted everywhere as the camera to have.. unlike Leicas. ZI are not hard to buy. Lots of them on eBay. The same ones every week. the prices are unrealistic. It does not sell.
Unless one is selling I don´t see why support the idea it´s a well deserved price.
Steve M.
Mentor
That price would be too steep for me if I were in the market for something to shoot M lenses with. Why not get an M6 or a Hexar RF? I owned both and they were both excellent cameras. The Hexar is essentially an M7 and you can find them in great shape for around $800. As nice as the ZI may be, it's still gonna be Cosina build quality. Both the cameras I mentioned have excellent build quality.
Of course, with all the great LTM lenses out there, a Bessa R would be my choice, and put the rest of the money into film and fiber paper.
Of course, with all the great LTM lenses out there, a Bessa R would be my choice, and put the rest of the money into film and fiber paper.
colker
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Exactly! At last some reason.
I have an M body and should get another one in the future. I am researching my options.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Can you direct us to the production specs of the FM2 which state it was made by Cosina? Just curious here. Are you mistaking it for the FM-10?
As for the ZI price, it is a much lower production camera than most others. It is the only equivalent in spec and build to a Leica M6 or M7, many say better. It is very modern as opposed to an M4-P, M4-2, M4 or M2. Again, far fewer ZI bodies were produced than these models.
You can't even compare it to any of the top-shelf cameras by Nikon, Canon, Minolta, Olympus or Pentax and they made many of those in far greater numbers by several orders of magnitude.
The Nikon F3 was made for 21 years so it's easy to find a perfectly working body for under $100. That's almost solely based upon the fact that nearly a million of these were made and they are of extraordinary quality.
The resurgence of using rangefinder cameras has been going on for about 20 years now with folks wanting smaller cameras, largely with simpler operation than the small form factor wonder point and shoots that took over in the 80 through the 90s. A few in the RF aren't quite as simple but offer fully manual simplicity (Contax G1, G2, Konica Hexar RF.)
So, it has come down to utility, hype, the waxing and waning of shooters' preferences as well as collectors.
Like others have said, it's basically supply and demand. If you want it bad enough, you'll pay for it.
Phil Forrest
As for the ZI price, it is a much lower production camera than most others. It is the only equivalent in spec and build to a Leica M6 or M7, many say better. It is very modern as opposed to an M4-P, M4-2, M4 or M2. Again, far fewer ZI bodies were produced than these models.
You can't even compare it to any of the top-shelf cameras by Nikon, Canon, Minolta, Olympus or Pentax and they made many of those in far greater numbers by several orders of magnitude.
The Nikon F3 was made for 21 years so it's easy to find a perfectly working body for under $100. That's almost solely based upon the fact that nearly a million of these were made and they are of extraordinary quality.
The resurgence of using rangefinder cameras has been going on for about 20 years now with folks wanting smaller cameras, largely with simpler operation than the small form factor wonder point and shoots that took over in the 80 through the 90s. A few in the RF aren't quite as simple but offer fully manual simplicity (Contax G1, G2, Konica Hexar RF.)
So, it has come down to utility, hype, the waxing and waning of shooters' preferences as well as collectors.
Like others have said, it's basically supply and demand. If you want it bad enough, you'll pay for it.
Phil Forrest
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
F3HP is outlasting and over performing Leica M2 for three times less.
From specifications POV. From same POV my 40$ EOS300 is better than 300$ F3HP camera. It does all F3HP could do but weights less and AF.
I know your feeling. But RF is not SLR. Not for the quantities it was made and not for the prices it was sold for.
I remember how Cosina made Nikon brand SLR was hundred something at BH and same Cosina based Bessas were four hundreds.
It is hard to be in RF land if you are Nikonian.
BTW, I think my 29CAD Nikkormat does the same what any F camera do.
Takes image by mirror slapping sound or with mirror up and nothing in VF.
aizan
Mentor
zeiss ikons are selling for $1100-1850, which seems like a reasonable price range considering the alternatives. it’s a great camera, not as heavy as a leica, and designed from the ground up to have a meter and ae. it’s the newest electronic m-mount body, so it’ll last the longest. if you want one, get one now or you’ll have to pay even more for it in the future!
gavinlg
Mentor
1. The FM2 wasn't made by Cosina, it was made by Nikon. The FM10 was made by Cosina.
2. Your comparison with the other cameras doesn't hold up - I bought a Pentax 6x7 with 105mm lens for $110aud in 2011 in Tokyo. Now the absolute cheapest you could get one would be around $600-800aud. Likewise I just bought a mint condition F3HP for around 500. They have gone up in price too. Same with the M6, the Hexar RF, the Hexar AF, ALL point and shoots, the Bessa Rx series, the FM2. All gone up significantly in value over the last few years.
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