A camera that was used in the Manhattan Project (Atomic Bomb Drop on Nagasaki)

[raid]

I have emailed the producer of the pbs show that I am withdrawing my request for an investigation.

 

[cosmonot]

Raid, I'm sorry to hear that Winnek's daughter is getting upset. I don't think that anyone is questioning his legacy, it's quite apparent that he invented some very novel tools and techniques.

But...

The more I look at this I don't think it's an aerial camera. Of course I'm not an expert on WWII aerial photography or the Manhattan Project, but I am an engineer that's worked in material testing labs for the US Govt. I've also taken several Univiersity courses on "The Bomb" and read more than a few books about it.

Winnek's TRIVISION concept was an improvement on x-ray photography. NAMC would be doing xray photography of all sorts of materials, things that may have been tested to failure, or welds that needed to be inspected. The lens on your camera clearly shows a magnification of 1:4, which I wouldn't expect for an aerial camera, but would expect on one that lived it's life in a materials lab. The Manhattan project would have most definitely been a customer for cameras like this, but not to put on planes for aerial reconnaisance.

Look for references to "x-ray inspection" in the literature surrounding the Manhattan project. That was a common test for everything from storage/pressure tank welds to mechanisms that were inaccessible after assembly. This is a project where literally no cost was spared and any new technology that could help ensure success was evaluated.

Winnek's patent shows a sheet film holder (referred to as a "common" size) being installed on the rear bellows of the camera. Assume it's 8x10", and that 362mm lens at 10,000 ft would cover ~10 miles along the long axis. The true test would be to use Winnek's own formulas from his patents to determine if the Trivision system would even be applicable to a photo from altitude. What would be the distance between lenticular ridges in the film needed to photograph at 10k, 15k, 20k, 30k feet? Could those ridges be achieved with the acetate film base of the day? Could it resolve important details of a city from that altitude in 3D using Trivison film prepared using standard film emulsions and NOT x-ray film?

 

[jmkelly]

Raid - that's too bad about Winnek's daughter. I'm sorry to hear it, and sorry that she has taken this stance.

If as Ted notes, her father's contribution to the events surrounding the bomb program has been left out of the historical record...

...which otherwise conflict with the numerous accounts from biographies and historians who've already published intricate and detailed timelines of minute events and equipment used that led up to the 2 missions...

... then one might think she would have some interest highlighting her father's accomplishments.

If she is still open to communication from you, perhaps you could suggest that SHE contact PBS, and offer to make your camera available to her.

 

[raid]

John: She takes the stand that people in the area of optics are aware of her father's contributions and that there is no need for any TV show on him.
She again affirmed that I have one of her father's cameras, and she reaffirmed the accuracy of her father's diary and "notes".


cosmonot: I am aware of the 1:4 on the lens and its possible implications. Earlier threads brought up this fact, and that's why I accepted the suggestion that this was an X-ray camera ... until Winnek's daughter somehow suggested otherwise.

She asked me not to contact here again,and she said that she regrets having contacting me in the first place.

I am not in a position to figure out who has the true recollection and who has not. Even if this camera was not used to take photos outside an X-ray lab, it still is a historical camera.

 

[micromontenegro]

John: She takes the stand that people in the area of optics are aware of her father's contributions and that there is no need for any TV show on him.
She again affirmed that I have one of her father's cameras, and she reaffirmed the accuracy of her father's diary and "notes".


She asked me not to contact here again,and she said that she regrets having contacting me in the first place.

With all due respect, she does not sound very logical.

 

[cosmonot]

cosmonot: I am aware of the 1:4 on the lens and its possible implications. Earlier threads brought up this fact, and that's why I accepted the suggestion that this was an X-ray camera ... until Winnek's daughter somehow suggested otherwise.

I would think that Winnek's own published definition of Trivison would carry some weight as well, considering this camera is labeled as such.

You have stated several times that this camera is large and difficult to handle. What sort of mounting points are on it? Is there anything that would indicate it is appropriately stressed for flight in a WWII bomber? Flight crews surely weren't hanging it out the window as they passed over Japan...

It's manual nature (focus via back bellows, sheet film, manually set shutter and aperture) along with it's descriptive labeling say a lot about what it is. It is exactly the type of camera that one would expect to have in the lab, or in direct support of the equipment surrounding the most technologically advanced weapon of the war.

The major unknown regarding this camera is what "Proj. No. 1071" was, and who ordered it.

To me it seems quite clear that without the journals to prove otherwise, this is exactly what the camera is. A lab instrument of a type that was possibly in the Manhattan Project inventory.

The researchers involved with either of the TV shows or academic institutions previously mentioned would have even less emotional attachment to the investigation than you, I, or Winnek's daughter. It would be interesting to see what they could discover.

 

[Gumby]

With all due respect, she does not sound very logical.

... and she sounds a bit insecure about her statements.

Raid, have you thought of doing a Freedom of Information Act request on your camera? Try giving DOD and DOE the description and serial number, and the term "Proj. No. 1071", and ask that they tell you all they know.

 

[ampguy]

Hi Raid

Hi Raid

I'm also sorry that she has taken this stance. But I can understand how someone would want their family member's legacy retained for their contributions to the advanced camera technology alone, and not diverted into the politics and personal opinions or ideals her dad may have left in his records that would likely be addressed.

In any case, you still have the option of pursuing the history of your camera and how it may have been used. You could even tell the PBS producers that the daughter of the inventor will not answer any questions for them and they will have to pursue their research without those notes, and that you will only cooperate if they promise to respect her privacy. It still may be interesting enough for them (or someone) to consider further researching.

Raid - that's too bad about Winnek's daughter. I'm sorry to hear it, and sorry that she has taken this stance.

If as Ted notes, her father's contribution to the events surrounding the bomb program has been left out of the historical record...
... then one might think she would have some interest highlighting her father's accomplishments.

If she is still open to communication from you, perhaps you could suggest that SHE contact PBS, and offer to make your camera available to her.

 

[raid]

I may have rushed too quickly to ask the PBS producer to forget about my request to investigate the camera. If she emails me back and accepts an investigation without involving Winnek's daughter, then I may go along with that.

It is my camera, after all.

Based on a tip that I have received at nelsonfoto.com, I have contacted the Strobe Alley at MIT to find out whether the late Professor Harold Egerton and inventor of the strobe, was on one of the A-bomb flights over Japan and supervised the photographing of the explosion and/or the first mushroom shot.

I may have the camera that Prof. Egerton used.

 

[CameraQuest]

Raid,

As the interest in this thread shows, the story behind your camera is very interesting to a LOT of people, and at the same time a virtually unknown subject.

The TV program would be wonderful. However special care needs to be taken with Mr. Winnek's daughter to bring her on board the project if at all possible. A good program could be made better with her blessing.

Stephen

 

[raid]

Raid,

As the interest in this thread shows, the story behind your camera is very interesting to a LOT of people, and at the same time a virtually unknown subject.

The TV program would be wonderful. However special care needs to be taken with Mr. Winnek's daughter to bring her on board the project if at all possible. A good program could be made better with her blessing.

Stephen

Stephen,

I gave it some additional thoughts, and then I emailed the producer with the wish to continue with the investigation.

I also hope for a good show that shows respect to the people involved.

 

[Gumby]

I may have the camera that Prof. Egerton used.

Doc spelled his name with a "d" in it... EDGERTON.

 

[ampguy]

Hi Raid

Hi Raid

I don't think Edgerton was in the 509th (~1800 personnel) or on any of the 6 or so allied planes that witnessed the explosions from the air, but he might have been involved with his cameras in the fighting in Europe. Here is the only online bio I could find of Howard Edgerton:

http://www.madehow.com/inventorbios/21/Harold-E-Edgerton.html

There was a project called "Project Alberta" in the 509th that was comprised of civilian scientists: http://www.mphpa.org/classic/CG/CG_09D.htm

There were ground crews for the a-bomb flights so you could check those lists too, but they would all likely have been active military.

Since most of the 5-6 planes on the missions are now on display, though were used through the 60s for various things, has anyone you know looked to see where a camera of your size would fit in say the Enola Gay or Bockscar that are on display? Where is unit XI and the other 13 or so units now?

I may have rushed too quickly to ask the PBS producer to forget about my request to investigate the camera. If she emails me back and accepts an investigation without involving Winnek's daughter, then I may go along with that.

It is my camera, after all.

Based on a tip that I have received at nelsonfoto.com, I have contacted the Strobe Alley at MIT to find out whether the late Professor Harold Egerton and inventor of the strobe, was on one of the A-bomb flights over Japan and supervised the photographing of the explosion and/or the first mushroom shot.

I may have the camera that Prof. Egerton used.

 

[raid]

Doc spelled his name with a "d" in it... EDGERTON.

Of course, you are right. I took the name from the posting in which his name was suggested to me, and I was thinking ... the first part of his name was edge ...

 

[raid]

I don't think Edgerton was in the 509th (~1800 personnel) or on any of the 6 or so allied planes that witnessed the explosions from the air, but he might have been involved with his cameras in the fighting in Europe. Here is the only online bio I could find of Howard Edgerton:

http://www.madehow.com/inventorbios/21/Harold-E-Edgerton.html

There was a project called "Project Alberta" in the 509th that was comprised of civilian scientists: http://www.mphpa.org/classic/CG/CG_09D.htm

There were ground crews for the a-bomb flights so you could check those lists too, but they would all likely have been active military.

Since most of the 5-6 planes on the missions are now on display, though were used through the 60s for various things, has anyone you know looked to see where a camera of your size would fit in say the Enola Gay or Bockscar that are on display? Where is unit XI and the other 13 or so units now?

It seems that there is every few hours a good tip on where to look for information.

The size of the camera raises the valid question whether such a huge and heavy camera was used on an airplane or not.

The other lenses don't have 1:4 on them. Is this another clue ... ?
The camera is an interchangeable lens camera. Unless you are a giant, it is not suitable for street photography.

 

[35mmdelux]

IMO, your camera ought to go to a museum, not the local U. The letter in your possession helps establish its provenance. unique find. Best - Paul

 

[iamzip]

Raid, I am sorry that my idea that you turn to History Detectives caused a rift between yourself and Mz. Winnek. To be honest, though, I don't think she has any reason to be upset. I would think she would welcome any interest in her father's work, and would be excited to have one of his cameras featured on a television show. If she truly believes that what she told you is correct, then what harm would having it featured on a TV show do? At any rate, if she has already broken off contact with you, there is certainly no reason to call off the TV guys. She's already made up her mind, and you won't get any more information out of her, so you might as well turn to people who make a living doing exactly what you are in need of.

 

[raid]

what you've found here, if you can.

I know the PR machine for these events was huge, probably bigger than if they even worked or not, with the potsdam events, stalin meetings, domestic pressures, etc. on Truman, who didn't even know about the "Project" untail Roosevelt's death.

I know that Ashford (and Lawrence Johnston) had a lot of clout, and that Ashford was a designer of the triggers for both bombs, and even brought on his assistant to ensure enemy radio signals would not interfere with the triggers. I wouldn't be surprised if he bought 15 of every kind of new photographic gadget for potential PR. Ashford also was responsible for the bomb on boxcar, where it would be deployed, whether they would return with it, go to sea with it, or as what happened, be ready to break the rules and drop it by radar instead of visual if necessary (almost).

So what have you found?

I was going to pm Fred a similar request.
I started to google for the camera information, and I encountered weird stuff for the Phildelphia Naval Base. A disappearing fog that made military personnel vanish with their submarines; a time machine; UFO stuff ... etc.

 

[raid]

Raid, I am sorry that my idea that you turn to History Detectives caused a rift between yourself and Mz. Winnek. To be honest, though, I don't think she has any reason to be upset. I would think she would welcome any interest in her father's work, and would be excited to have one of his cameras featured on a television show. If she truly believes that what she told you is correct, then what harm would having it featured on a TV show do? At any rate, if she has already broken off contact with you, there is certainly no reason to call off the TV guys. She's already made up her mind, and you won't get any more information out of her, so you might as well turn to people who make a living doing exactly what you are in need of.

Walter,

I cannot understand the woman's very strong negative response to my request that she give me more information.

I await from the associate producer of the PBS show an email in which she hopefully will express her willingness to do an investigation even without Winnek's daughter.

 

[iamzip]

Assuming they deem it worthy to do a full investigation, I would imagine that they would be able to proceed with or without Mz. Winnek. After all, it is their job to dig deep and determine the true nature of a given object, and if they happen to hit a dead end they will look somewhere else. Perhaps they could even smooth things over with Mz. Winnek, who knows, in their attempts to get information from all sorts of sources, they must be good at dealing with people.

p.s. My name is Chris, not Walter. Walter is the guy to whom I'm attributing the quote.