Roger Hicks
Mentor
Especially if your pictures are rotten, and all you care about is corner-to-corner sharpness.
At another point, what counts is whether the camera feels like an extension of your hand end eye. Maybe that's one of the factors keeping Leica in business, and the sensor and the lenses are secondary. .
Cheers,
R.
cosmonaut
Well-known
Leica killer= long time Leica users jumping ship to Sony and cutting into Leica sales. It will never happen.
raid
Dad Photographer
I do not get the excitement by many people here.
It is just another (digital) camera. There will be each year a new camera on the market.
Calm down. Make photos.
It is just another (digital) camera. There will be each year a new camera on the market.
Calm down. Make photos.
computer controlled
Established
I don't think the A7/7r will have any effect on Leica whatsoever. I do think, however, that they WILL have an effect on all other systems. A compact, Full Frame ILC camera? This is a first, especially being in the Sony E-Mount, which is probably the most versatile mount around atm.
I'm looking fwd to it =o]
I'm looking fwd to it =o]
uhoh7
Mentor
I think you already have an FF digital body for all those sweet lenses of yours. Most of us don't. Current options are not great in one way or the other.
For the first time in digtal history we have a FF option to Leica for RF glass.
Just another camera? Hardly. Open up the aperture, man. Right now you are at like, F/32.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I don't think it can be described as just another digital camera Raid. The fact that it's an interchangable lens full frame compact sort of separates it from the rest IMO.
Others will now follow of course!
raid
Dad Photographer
I understand, Keith, but others will follow, and this camera will not be important anymore.
DougFord
on the good foot
Will it or won't it?
The sony a7series look promising and IF Leica lenses perform to a higher standard on these cameras as opposed to the m240 they will definitely have an impact on Leica sales.
But are they the proverbial dump on Leica's front lawn? I guess we'll find out soon.
The sony a7series look promising and IF Leica lenses perform to a higher standard on these cameras as opposed to the m240 they will definitely have an impact on Leica sales.
But are they the proverbial dump on Leica's front lawn? I guess we'll find out soon.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
I doubt that the Sony 7/&r will harm Leica - but it will put pressure on the lens supply for M and other lenses which will have adapters for it. The fact is that you can get a 24mp, full frame M-lens compatible body for 1/5th of the price of a M240 will make it attractive. The EVIL viewfinder is a drawback - but for a saving of $5000 I think I can live with it. It would never become my primary camera - but it is small enough to stick in the bag with the film M's.
The 36 mp version scares me - my computer can handle the 24mp - but would probably crash and burn with the larger file size - and I don't really need it.
It will become a bit of a "game changer" - if it is successful (and I think it will be - price is too attractive for the fence sitters no to jump at) it will force companies like Olympos and Fuji to match the performance pretty soon. My experience with various Sony's was always their rather clumsy menu system. i don't want to spend days trying to figure out things. If I require more than an hour or two to get it to do what I want - I loose interest. Will be very interesting to see its performance in mono-chrome too.
The M240 buyers are set to get their Leica - however good the Sony is - but there will be more demand for high quality lenses for the Sony (36mp or even 24 mp will take no prisoners when it comes to image quality). The 36mp version is probably the only system currently available that will show what a 50 Summicron Asph can do! You can almost buy the 36mp version AND the 50f2 Asph for what a M240 costs today!!!!
I take my hat of to Sony for doing it - and keeping the price reasonable too.
Leica is no longer the "pro" camera of choice (except some few users) - it is more of a "bragging right" product - and thats OK if it benefits Leica and their R and D in the factory. Of course, a Noctilux or Nokton 50 f1.1 with the Sony's higher usable iso, focus peeking etc is attractive - particularly as the winter darkness is coming!
The 36 mp version scares me - my computer can handle the 24mp - but would probably crash and burn with the larger file size - and I don't really need it.
It will become a bit of a "game changer" - if it is successful (and I think it will be - price is too attractive for the fence sitters no to jump at) it will force companies like Olympos and Fuji to match the performance pretty soon. My experience with various Sony's was always their rather clumsy menu system. i don't want to spend days trying to figure out things. If I require more than an hour or two to get it to do what I want - I loose interest. Will be very interesting to see its performance in mono-chrome too.
The M240 buyers are set to get their Leica - however good the Sony is - but there will be more demand for high quality lenses for the Sony (36mp or even 24 mp will take no prisoners when it comes to image quality). The 36mp version is probably the only system currently available that will show what a 50 Summicron Asph can do! You can almost buy the 36mp version AND the 50f2 Asph for what a M240 costs today!!!!
I take my hat of to Sony for doing it - and keeping the price reasonable too.
Leica is no longer the "pro" camera of choice (except some few users) - it is more of a "bragging right" product - and thats OK if it benefits Leica and their R and D in the factory. Of course, a Noctilux or Nokton 50 f1.1 with the Sony's higher usable iso, focus peeking etc is attractive - particularly as the winter darkness is coming!
Turtle
Mentor
I agree with Roger in that digital Leicas are not just bought because people either (a) misguidedly think they are best or (b) want a status symbol. As hard as this is to believe, some buy them because they are technically good enough, while delivering a user experience that (for some) strongly encourages the act of photography and the improves quality of the results.
Thew new Sony does not threaten Leica as such, but may steal M240 sales with those fed up of waiting. The A7 series may also steal sales from those who want amazing quality in a small package and are not too bothered about rangefinders and the true manual focus feel. This latter point is still an area where Leica does lead the way and why Leica has not been quick to give up on the costly and finicky RF viewfinder. It is also where Fuji is potentially dangerous, but both Sony and Fuji have their pros and cons.
Were Sony or Fuji to produce a FF camera of this kind with an optical finder of the size and quality of the Leica, that was designed around compatibility with M lenses and the flange focal distance entailed (as well as their own lenses), I do think Leica would be in trouble. Were they to build it with a truly premium shell, keep the menus and buttons simple and price it at perhaps $3,000- $3,500, very few Leica fans would not look elsewhere, because the utility requirements would be met. But they haven't and the difference between my MM and the new Sony is still substantial.
That said, I am very interested in the Sony because I do not have a small FF interchangeable lens colour camera and cannot afford a M240 on top of the MM I already have. If I do get one, there would be a slender possibility I would then sell the MM, but have a strong feeling that the relationship between me, the camera and subjects would not feel the same without the optical finder and so would keep the Leica for the majority of my work.
Thew new Sony does not threaten Leica as such, but may steal M240 sales with those fed up of waiting. The A7 series may also steal sales from those who want amazing quality in a small package and are not too bothered about rangefinders and the true manual focus feel. This latter point is still an area where Leica does lead the way and why Leica has not been quick to give up on the costly and finicky RF viewfinder. It is also where Fuji is potentially dangerous, but both Sony and Fuji have their pros and cons.
Were Sony or Fuji to produce a FF camera of this kind with an optical finder of the size and quality of the Leica, that was designed around compatibility with M lenses and the flange focal distance entailed (as well as their own lenses), I do think Leica would be in trouble. Were they to build it with a truly premium shell, keep the menus and buttons simple and price it at perhaps $3,000- $3,500, very few Leica fans would not look elsewhere, because the utility requirements would be met. But they haven't and the difference between my MM and the new Sony is still substantial.
That said, I am very interested in the Sony because I do not have a small FF interchangeable lens colour camera and cannot afford a M240 on top of the MM I already have. If I do get one, there would be a slender possibility I would then sell the MM, but have a strong feeling that the relationship between me, the camera and subjects would not feel the same without the optical finder and so would keep the Leica for the majority of my work.
A perfectly sensible summary.
noimmunity
scratch my niche
I noticed this comment on LUF
""I put my Zeiss ZM 21mm ƒ/2.8 on the A7r we have here [Luke works at Imaging-Resource —Ed.]. I'm sad to report that color shifts were severe and covered most of the frame. There was also severe darkening of the image away from the center, way too much to simply call vignetting. I chose this lens carefully, based on the experience of other users, to avoid this problem with my early NEX cameras."
""I put my Zeiss ZM 21mm ƒ/2.8 on the A7r we have here [Luke works at Imaging-Resource —Ed.]. I'm sad to report that color shifts were severe and covered most of the frame. There was also severe darkening of the image away from the center, way too much to simply call vignetting. I chose this lens carefully, based on the experience of other users, to avoid this problem with my early NEX cameras."
PaulDalex
Dilettante artist
Quoting jsrockit:
"The 36 mp version scares me - my computer can handle the 24mp - but would probably crash and burn with the larger file size - and I don't really need it."
This is one of the recurring concern is so hard to understand for me
I am currently working with a composite file made of four scanned photos, one 6x9 and 3 35 mm with a old CS4 on a 2008 PC (32 bit) and the file is about 1 Gb. No problem at all. For back-up I use a Samsung 1 Tera minuscule drive that takes energy from the USB connection.
Because I am very old I wish I could by a 100 Mpix 7r now, I am afraid hat when it will come it could be too late for me
Cheers
Paolo
"The 36 mp version scares me - my computer can handle the 24mp - but would probably crash and burn with the larger file size - and I don't really need it."
This is one of the recurring concern is so hard to understand for me
I am currently working with a composite file made of four scanned photos, one 6x9 and 3 35 mm with a old CS4 on a 2008 PC (32 bit) and the file is about 1 Gb. No problem at all. For back-up I use a Samsung 1 Tera minuscule drive that takes energy from the USB connection.
Because I am very old I wish I could by a 100 Mpix 7r now, I am afraid hat when it will come it could be too late for me
Cheers
Paolo
Spyro
Well-known
nah I reckon this is probably good news for leica, they will sell more lenses.
they may or may not lose some body sales (depending on how good the sony is with RF wides, I suspect it won't be as good as an M) but I dont think bodies is where the profit is anyway.
they may or may not lose some body sales (depending on how good the sony is with RF wides, I suspect it won't be as good as an M) but I dont think bodies is where the profit is anyway.
BW400CN
Bessamatic forever!
To tell the trouth - I had been thinking about saving money for a Leica M240 to use it with my Canon FD and Voigtländer Bessamatic glas.
Now this plan is gone!
This new Sony makes my dream come trough to use this glas again with its normal view and keep the NEX-5 as a teleconverter.
Now I realy can have a digital analogue system which uses the glas I have insted of buying a Nikon or whatever DSLR and Film body and lenses.
It was good to keep all this stuff when the prices droped and everybody said get rid of it!
Now this plan is gone!
This new Sony makes my dream come trough to use this glas again with its normal view and keep the NEX-5 as a teleconverter.
Now I realy can have a digital analogue system which uses the glas I have insted of buying a Nikon or whatever DSLR and Film body and lenses.
It was good to keep all this stuff when the prices droped and everybody said get rid of it!
Not sure why you linked my name to this quote, but I did not say it.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
I think what you described is one of what they call "cognitive biases." It is part of the things that influence our reasoning.
35mmdelux
#Represent
Let's wait and see how many photojournalists run with the Sony--
35photo
Well-known
There is no question about it.. A never ending loop of nonsense..Most folks out there just like cameras cause..but they actually aren't really doing anything with them. Like investigating, creating, discovering... There are very few people truly doing something with a camera that makes me want to look at the images..
uhoh7
Mentor
considering the A7r + LAEA4 gives very very fast AF, and sigma is soon to release the 24-70 constant f/2 in alpha, this camera may see alot more use than the average 5D user imagines.
For some the urge to piss on any parade which happens to wander on to their street is just irresistible, and precludes rational consideration. Each digital M was trashed here by many early on. Now not so much. So there must be some pent up resentment.
"oh others will follow and we will all forget this thing"
This project was cancelled twice. You may have a long wait for the next short register FF with every adapter known to man ready to go.
The nile is a very very long river, and the current is slooooow.