What 4x5 for Beginners ?

jusxusfanatic said:
Oh does it? So you mean I won't be able to use the tilt?
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That's correct. You really need a book on view camera technique. Actually I think there's a good book by that name. Learn the basics of a view camera and optics before making a mistake. Learn why you need a lens with a large image circle.

I know you've made up your mind and anything I say makes no difference but I have fifty years of professional commercial photography experience of which much of my work was done with 4x5 to 11x14 view cameras.

I hate to see anyone jump into something that's as involved as this without knowing what they're doing. It'll wind up costing you more money in the long run plus a great deal of frustration because you don't understand the principals behind the movements.

With a 150 Tessar type you'll have almost no tilt with the front. You can tilt the back but it creates distortion. These are the things you need to know and why this is so.
 
Nikkors are great and i've owned several but again know what you're buying. There are quite a few different Nikkor view lens types. You just can't say, oh Fujinons are good I hear. There are 3 versions of W Fujinon. All have different size image circles and some different coatings and shutters. Fujinon lenses are superb. I own several.
 
I just bought a great Sinar P 4x5 outfit with pro case for $750

it used to sell for about $7K new

bought it use with the Fuji GFX as a digital back
 
x-ray said:
... You really need a book on view camera technique. Actually I think there's a good book by that name. Learn the basics of a view camera and optics before making a mistake.
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x-ray,
You offered me good advice in the thread I started, thank you!, and this is also good.

So, I just looked at Amazon for View Camera Technique. Figured it will be a good addition to my book shelves.

I actually was looking for a Kindle version but that version was more expensive than the hardcover edition, and I like books better so I got the last hardcover copy in stock.

My Intrepid shipped today, finally, and so it is going to be a bit of a race between this book and my new camera.

Rob
 
rbiemer said:
x-ray,
You offered me good advice in the thread I started, thank you!, and this is also good.

So, I just looked at Amazon for View Camera Technique. Figured it will be a good addition to my book shelves.

I actually was looking for a Kindle version but that version was more expensive than the hardcover edition, and I like books better so I got the last hardcover copy in stock.

My Intrepid shipped today, finally, and so it is going to be a bit of a race between this book and my new camera.

Rob
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I think this is the book I checked out of the library in 1964 to learn how to use a view camera. It's been a long time so I may be wrong about which book it was but it should tell you everything you need to know.
 
I'm not sure how many people are buying view cameras here, but you may try to get an understanding of Scheimpflug. It's covered in "View Camera Technique". All those moves the standards make allow for some advantages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheimpflug_principle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR4m70xr9mE

Don't sweat the math, if it's something you aren't into, just understand the principle.

X-ray, I commend you for your patience .. way more than I have.
 
Rayt said:
When I started out with LF I had no idea what I wanted or needed until I got a kit and shot for a few months. After that I knew exactly what camera with what specs and which lenses and what coverage, etc. This is all based on what I shoot and how I shoot. I think LF is something you'll need to dive in. Not sure if this helps but I wish someone had told me this before I bought my first kit which turned out to be inappropriate for my needs.
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My first camera was a calumet. I found from reading that I couldn't use a 90 as the bellows wouldn't compress enough to focus it at infinity. So, I got a short bellows camera that wouldn't properly focus my 210 Zeiss Jena. I built a special lens board for the 210. My next two cameras were Sinars which would accommodate both standard and bag bellows. They also come apart and will pack flat for travel, a big plus for me.

I went through a learning period of about a year. I didn't know anyone who used a view camera at the time and just spent some money making mistakes. I needed the camera for work and until I got a modular camera I had problems. x-ray mentioned he has a Norma. The Sinar Norma is a work of art. A really beautiful camera..

I learned from assisting a photographer who used 8x10 for table top work, all about bellows sag, film sag (mainly a 8x10 problem.. vacuum backs), moisture and film holders, why not to buy a wooden camera, etc . The main problem many experience with wooden cameras is: if the camera has some mildly extreme moves, usually the front standard, they won't hold position over a long period of time. Like, over night. This includes Deardorff . The standard locks slip. Lots of still life photographers complained about this. Often a set was created and photographed over several days. Coming in to work, in the morning, to find you were no longer in focus was common. They are great for portrait and field work. Penn used an 8x10 deardorff and his assistants took care of camera problems. I remember reading about Avedon's assistant buying a 8x10 Sinar and setting it up for a shot as a surprise. Avadon knew a new camera was coming but wasn't ready for it. He had used his wooden camera for years. His assistant was going crazy with the problems. He said it took just a few days to embrace the change. You can see him with the 8x10 in the field making portraits in one or more of his books.

Don't forget to get a good tripod.
 
Nokton48 said:
My recommendation would be for the Sinar Norma. This is a camera you will never outgrow and they are plentiful and not that expensive.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sinar-Norma...137187?hash=item3f7e229ca3:g:vrEAAOSwK6RZMbfV

I have four Normas in my studio, 4x5 to 8x10

My 8x10 Norma. There are close to a hundred accessories for this camera. I own most of them. I have been a Norma owner and user for nearly forty years.
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Nice rig! You should probably explain the Sinar shutter to these people. As some appear new to this and won't know what it is.
 
Nokton48 said:
My recommendation would be for the Sinar Norma. This is a camera you will never outgrow and they are plentiful and not that expensive.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sinar-Norma...137187?hash=item3f7e229ca3:g:vrEAAOSwK6RZMbfV

I have four Normas in my studio, 4x5 to 8x10

My 8x10 Norma. There are close to a hundred accessories for this camera. I own most of them. I have been a Norma owner and user for nearly forty years.
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I'm still using my Norma that I bought new in 1969. It's been the main 4x5 that I used for catalog work until digital came in. I added an 8x10 Deardorff to my system in 1973 and used it Until digital came in. The Deardorff I bought was a well used 1930's V8. I cant even guess how many thousand sheets I shot in both and both cameras functioned like new. I still use my Norma on occasion and finally replaced my Deardorff with a near new one. I now use it for collodion and fun photography. Out are great.
 
x-ray said:
I'm still sing my Norma that I bought new in 1969. It's been the main 4x5 that I used for catalog work until digital came in. I added an 8x10 Deardorff to my system in 1973 and used it Until digital came in. The Deardorff I bought was a well used 1930's. I cat even guess how many thousand sheets I shot in both and both cameras functioned like new. I still use my Norma on occasion and finally replaced my Deardorff with a near new one. I now use it for collodion and fun photography. Out are great.
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Hi x-ray, I used a Sinar F field camera. My assistant now has it. It was great. My pal who has 2 8x10 Ps and a couple of 4x5 Ps has my other F. He was a big name food photographer. There were days when both 8x10 s were used on separate sets (two sets of lenses$$). I think he had 5 people in the studio back then. Times have changed. My studio neighbor used a Norma. What a great camera. I did/do most of my stuff with 35mm and now digital gear. Most of the people I knew who used 8x10 had at least 5000 w/s of light in their studios. Many had 10k. That's changed too with digital.
 
PKR said:
Hi x-ray, I used a Sinar F field camera. My assistant now has it. It was great. My pal who has 2 8x10 Ps and a couple of 4x5 Ps has my other F. He was a big name food photographer. There were days when both 8x10 s were used on separate sets (two sets of lenses$$). I think he had 5 people in the studio back then. Times have changed. My studio neighbor used a Norma. What a great camera. I did/do most of my stuff with 35mm and now digital gear. Most of the people I knew who used 8x10 had at least 5000 w/s of light in their studios. Many had 10k. That's changed too with digital.
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I closed my bag studio in 2000. I'd been in it for almost 20 years. I had 6000 sqft and could drive a semi truck in it. I was going to do an annual report shot with an executive and his Jet Ranger helicopter in it but the shot got changed to one of his factory locations.

I think at that time I had in excess of 50,000 ws of Speedotron black line and Norman strobes. I by far preceded the Speedotron. I sold a lot of it but still have a 4800 and 2400 with quite a few heads and 5 For e 10 1,000 Speedotron monolites and 5 Alien Bees for tiny stuff. I'm actually a big fan of hot lights and still use them a lot especially for illustrative product shots.

I foolishly sold a lot of equipment a few years ago as I was wooed by digital. After buying a Technikardan 23 with a Hasselblad digital back and a set of digital lenses I saw my mistake and bought a lot of my old view equipment back.

I have my original Norma and can never sell it. In the past few years I replaced my old beater 8x10 Deardorff and picked up a friends 4x5 Deardorff Special he bought new in 1960 and used it during his 70 years as a commercial photographer. I wanted to own something of his because he'd been such an inspiration to me as a kid. For my 60th birthday my wife gave me a new Ebony SV45TE, the ebony one. It's the finest wooden camera I've ever used.

Relatively speaking premium lenses are really cheap now. Some of the cult lenses like Dagor's aren't and Sironar S but they're not worth the extra money and not really better than 99% of the less expensive lenses.

I'll always keep my view cameras. Even if LF film were to go away I can mix collodion and pour my own plates and have done that in the past.
 
x-ray said:
I closed my bag studio in 2000. I'd been in it for almost 20 years. I had 6000 sqft and could drive a semi truck in it. I was going to do an annual report shot with an executive and his Jet Ranger helicopter in it but the shot got changed to one of his factory locations.

I think at that time I had in excess of 50,000 ws of Speedotron black line and Norman strobes. I by far preceded the Speedotron. I sold a lot of it but still have a 4800 and 2400 with quite a few heads and 5 For e 10 1,000 Speedotron monolites and 5 Alien Bees for tiny stuff. I'm actually a big fan of hot lights and still use them a lot especially for illustrative product shots.

I foolishly sold a lot of equipment a few years ago as I was wooed by digital. After buying a Technikardan 23 with a Hasselblad digital back and a set of digital lenses I saw my mistake and bought a lot of my old view equipment back.

I have my original Norma and can never sell it. In the past few years I replaced my old beater 8x10 Deardorff and picked up a friends 4x5 Deardorff Special he bought new in 1960 and used it during his 70 years as a commercial photographer. I wanted to own something of his because he'd been such an inspiration to me as a kid. For my 60th birthday my wife gave me a new Ebony SV45TE, the ebony one. It's the finest wooden camera I've ever used.

Relatively speaking premium lenses are really cheap now. Some of the cult lenses like Dagor's aren't and Sironar S but they're not worth the extra money and not really better than 99% of the less expensive lenses.

I'll always keep my view cameras. Even if LF film were to go away I can mix collodion and pour my own plates and have done that in the past.
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I've a lot going on this weekend, but, i'll post the gene smith thread. Maybe a good time? I'll respond there.
This stuff is OT for these folks. pkf
 
PKR said:
I've a lot going on this weekend, but, i'll post the gene smith thread. Maybe a good time? I'll respond there.
This stuff is OT for these folks. pkf
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Sounds good. I saw a really good show of his a few years ago at the center for creative photography in Tucson.
 
PKR said:
Nice rig! You should probably explain the Sinar shutter to these people. As some appear new to this and won't know what it is.
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The Sinar Shutter is an accessory for the camera, which basically allows you to use barrel-mounted lenses (which do not have their own shutters).

As part of the Norma system, Sinar offered lenses which were properly "Forward-mounted" so that the rear cell of the lens would not contact the Norma Shutter blades. This was a precision manufacturing process, each lens was properly spaced forward, so that the rear cell was within 1mm on the shutter blades.

The Sinar Norma was (and still is) incredibly innovative. Sinar offered factory-mounted barrel lenses with "rabbit ears" so that the camera could be operated from the rear of the camera (no need to walk around it to set things). Additionally there were "Shutter Cables" which integrated the shutter to the rear standard of the camera.

Why is this a big deal? You could operate the Norma with lightening speed from BEHIND THE CAMERA, setting everything from the rear. When you finished viewing the ground glass, you simply inserted a film holder, which closed the Sinar Shutter and you were ready to shoot, just that quickly.

The Norma will operate as quickly as a reflex camera, when properly configured. It was my preferred choice for Architectural shoots.

I have owned many monorail and wooden cameras. I will never sell my Norma system, which I have built-up over forty years.

002 by Nokton48, on Flickr

4x5" Norma with 47mm F8 Super Angulon on Norma recessed lensboard. Great for 2x3 shooting. In the left bottom corner is my 75mm F8 Super Angulon with Schneider Center Filter, this is a Norma lens with "rabbit ears" and no shutter, it is designed to work beautifully with the Norma Shutter. Super-fast to shoot with. This proved to be an advantage when photographing buildings.


001 by Nokton48, on Flickr

100mm Symmar mounted on Norma with Norma Shutter. I enjoy designing and machining lenses and mounts to go on my various cameras.
 
DSC05783 by Nokton48, on Flickr

Sinar Norma 5x7 with Sinar Shutter and Auto-Cables, with 360mm Norma Symmar Automatic Lens. This rig operates as fast as a reflex camera. REALLY!

This camera is on permanent display at the Museum of Modern Art, as a Industrial Design Object. IMO the finest you can buy, hands down. Cheap and plentiful!
 
I tried monorail albeit cheap Calumets. One for wides, then 16 & 20 " models.

Way too complicated! Way to mush to move around.

Second model was a Zone VI .

Folds small. Long bellows. Check that, built in. For wide lenses, short bellows. Check. Bag bellows change out in a minute or so. Looks pretty. People have asked if it really works.

Set fits in a back pack with my six lenses, dark cloth, bag bellows, loupe,a few film holders.light meter, filters. notebook.

Lenses are 90 SA 110 Very wide Schneider, 135 something with not much coverage, but nice, 180 Rodenstock, 210 and 300 .

Only issue is to heavy. There is always a photo cart.

Can`t see using a 4x5 for street and carry around . To big & slow. Buy a Leica.
 
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