ian_watts
Ian Watts
Yes, I'm not sure "dedicated enthusiast" was the best description I could have used to describe someone who sticks with a technology even though the equipment is no longer available to buy new. I guess I meant a different level of dedication.
c.poulton
Well-known
Exactly the same for me. In fact I would probably be shooting with a DSLR right now instead of film!
HHPhoto
Well-known
Hello,
very important question to our "head bartender" Stephen Gandy:
In the official Cosina statement only the three 35mm Bessas are listed as discontinued.
But not the medium format Bessa III and Bessa III W.
So what is the real situation with the medium format models?
Thanks and cheers, Jan
very important question to our "head bartender" Stephen Gandy:
In the official Cosina statement only the three 35mm Bessas are listed as discontinued.
But not the medium format Bessa III and Bessa III W.
So what is the real situation with the medium format models?
Thanks and cheers, Jan
ian_watts
Ian Watts
Stephen can no doubt provide the official position but I think the Bessa III and III W have been effectively discontinued for some time (at least Cosina haven't manufactured any for some time) and dealers have been running down factory stock. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong but the Fuji models (which come from the same production line) have, I think, already been discontinued. These are cameras that have been of interest to me and I've been close to buying both models in recent times so I guess it's my fault if I now miss out (at least on a new one).
HHPhoto
Well-known
Well, the Fuji labelled had been discontinued. There was an official statement by Fujifilm.
But there has never been such an announcement by Voigtländer concerning the Bessa III and III W. These models also haven been available without problems.
And so far I haven't seen any official statements about a production stop.
Therefore my question.
http://voigtlaender.com/medium-format-cameras.html
Cheers, Jan
Bille
Well-known
Beautiful product shot in the end.
ian_watts
Ian Watts
Yes, fair enough. All I know is that Robert White (the retail arm of Flaghead, the CV distributor in the UK) stopped selling the medium format bodies earlier in the year and now have only a smattering of the 35mm bodies left in stock.
Kent
Finally at home...
Sad, indeed.
But to be honest, it's people like me who are to blame. I haven't bught a new film camera in ages - apart from the Lomo Spinner 360° just recently. But I have bought at least 5 new digital cams (and several used ones) since 2000.
You can find used film cams in excellent condition going at very good prices. So, a tight fisted person like me wonders why we should buy new cameras. The answer is right at hand.
I'm afraid that this is another step on the road that film photography walks down. I just hope it won't end in oblivion but in a nice little niche.
We should observe Leica closely and as soon as they stop selling analogue cameras, it's either time to get rid of all your remaining films and film cams or pile up and get a special storage for all the film and the chemicals you're gonna need in the next decades. Because that will be the time when the days of film are really counted.
But to be honest, it's people like me who are to blame. I haven't bught a new film camera in ages - apart from the Lomo Spinner 360° just recently. But I have bought at least 5 new digital cams (and several used ones) since 2000.
You can find used film cams in excellent condition going at very good prices. So, a tight fisted person like me wonders why we should buy new cameras. The answer is right at hand.
I'm afraid that this is another step on the road that film photography walks down. I just hope it won't end in oblivion but in a nice little niche.
We should observe Leica closely and as soon as they stop selling analogue cameras, it's either time to get rid of all your remaining films and film cams or pile up and get a special storage for all the film and the chemicals you're gonna need in the next decades. Because that will be the time when the days of film are really counted.
ian_watts
Ian Watts
I think that is an unnecessary pessimistic view. Whilst I agree that if Leica and the remaining manufacturers stop production it would represent the crossing of an important psychological threshold (a point I have been trying to articulate earlier in this thread), the direct impact for actual film and chemical sales would be very marginal (at least in the short to medium term*). The number of Leica cameras sold new represent a very small proportion of the cameras being used by the film using public at large. The vast majority of film being bought today is being used in cameras of varying vintage and the availability of new cameras is really only significant in the "Holga", "Lomo" and instant film sectors.
*Longer term, who knows? If no new hardware is manufactured, then eventually, as equipment fails and isn't repaired, the pool of cameras and camera users (though the two are not directly related) is going to shrink. All that said, Holgas and expensive Leicas aside, this has effectively been the situation for more than a decade now and film and film services are still freely available.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Sorry, with all respect, but that is nonsense.
Please look at the facts:
1. Leica has said their sales for film M cameras are increasing. Therefore they have introduced the new film model M-A last year.
2. There are at least 200 - 300 million properly working film cameras out there.
So at least for the next 30 years we will not have a bottleneck in film cameras.
The Japanese manufacturers alone have sold more than 120 million film SLRs, more then 500 million 35mm compacts and about 3 million MF and LF cameras since 1977.
And then you have to add the production before that, and all the production of European, eastern European / Russian and Asian manufacturers of cameras.
Here is the official CIPA data for Japanese production:
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/common/cr400.pdf
There is a simple reason why used film cameras are so extremely cheap: Because so much were made and so much are still properly working.
Put a current, modern film in it, and you have up-to-date picture quality. A sustainable system.
And by the way:
Ilford, Rollei-Film, Adox, Spur, Bergger, Tetenal and some others have recently reported increasing demand for their film products.
Cheers, Jan
I don't doubt this at all... but how much of it is because people's other favorite films have been discontinued? Manufacturers discontinue products for one reason generally speaking.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Most probably nothing.
Because during the last 12 months only one film was discontinued on a global scale: Kodak BW 400.
On the other hand two new films were introduced: Bergger Pancro 400 and Foma Retropan 320 Soft (and also Adox CHS 100 II in 120 recently). And Impossible 8x10" color just last week.
And concerning photo chemistry and paper no discontinuations, but several new products from several manufacturers (so even more variety and competition here).
Cheers, Jan
photomoof
Fischli & Weiss Sculpture
30 years seems a long time to repair cameras with no factory parts and no factory trained repairmen, or new tools. Cannibalism repair only goes so far.
However I would look to the lack of high-end scanners to be an issue, more than the lack of available cameras, in the amature market.
I have no doubt the pro market will support making prints from chromes and negatives for some time to come, maybe virtually forever, but it will be pricy.
Motion picture restoration, and museum archives will keep some form of scanning available, but it won't support a market for creation of new media, only preservation of that which exists.
Oddly as much as I use digital, I am not convinced that a lack of hard analog copies (or originals), not reliant on electronic storage, is a good thing. I believe a lot of material will be lost, that survived in "shoe boxes."
I don't think it matters what happened in a 12 month period. I would think that what has happened over the last 10 years has supported the existence of these new products that are coming out. I'm not sure it is indicative of real growth... however, it is good that something is being introduced at least.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Those manufacturers who are introducing new products: They have seen a new trend in the last 12 - 18 months: Stabilising demand and now increasing demand.
Cheers, Jan
Cheers, Jan
Sure, growth for their product, but I'm speaking to growth overall in all film products. I don't know the answer... but I would doubt it is significant. It sucks, but I would imagine there is no real film revival of huge significance. We can only hope for sustained availability.
HHPhoto
Well-known
In the last two years we've seen new products from Fujifilm (instant film and RA-4 paper), Kodak Alaris (RA-4 paper), Ilford (cameras and papers), Impossible (films), Foma (film), Adox (film, papers and chemistry), Maco / Rollei-Film (films), Bergger (film and chemistry), Spur (chemistry), Moersch (chemistry), Tetenal (chemistry), Lomography (films), Reflecta (scanners).
And lots of Kickstarter projects for film cameras, lenses etc.
Film Ferrania has invested several million Euro in their new plant. They would not do that without a positive market outlook.
Same for Adox, who has bought one of Ilford Switzerland coating machines. Pemberstone has invested in Ilford because the Ilford numbers clearly show the increasing demand for the Ilford products.
All these companies know their numbers. Therefore they are investing, making new products. They see the beginning trend change, film is coming back.
Even the digital media is seeing it:
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.u...-with-amateur-photographer-19-sept-2015-60923
You don't know their numbers.
Cheers, Jan
willie_901
Mentor
Same here in the fly-over midwest. The used departments slowly transitioned from being 80:20 film:digital to 20:80 over about the last five years. And the cash flow per square foot metric has decreased used camera/lens selection in the store I visit. KEH is still going strong though.
Film is... and will be a rather small but steady market demographic.
I have nothing against film or those who cherish it.
To quote Jean Shepherd; "I don't make the news, I just report it."
photomoof
Fischli & Weiss Sculpture
No question there is some stabilization, but my question still remains, can amature color film survive without afordable scanners? The only good news is that professional color developing where I live is still reasonably priced, and color film still pretty cheap at $7 average.
Also -- sooner or later, digital storage will improve so that decay is no longer an issue, just as film is hanging on, mechanical preservation of digital is hanging on, but there will be a day without mechanical drives, coupled with truly permanent memory.
willie_901
Mentor
I know this is true for me even though I only bought lenses from Camerquest. I did buy a Zeiss ZM body and lenses from anothr RF sponsor, PopFlash.
While I no longer use film cameras, the RF experience strongly influenced the work I've done since 2006 as well as the preference for digital camera system I currently use.