paul beard
Member
Ah. can it be moved manually (to the left, not front to back? That might account for some of my confusion)? I didn't mess with it yesterday, thought I would give it a rest but fortified with this, I may take it up again.
Thanks.
paul beard
Member
Aha. Diddling that lever works great. That means the second curtain isn't kaput. But for some reason, I cannot get that cam under the slow speed assembly to trip it. And it's pretty hard to see under there so I can see what's missing . . . .
OK, what seems at least as important as the position of the ring gear and its cam is the position of the cam on the spring shaft. I've had some almost successes getting this all fitted together but either the second curtain fails to close or the ring gear runs past its place. I'm not sure the gears aren't out of mesh as one of the problems I have experienced is the end of the spring comes out of the shaft (there's not much to hold it in place). So I expect there's one problem that's outside the scope of these instructions ;-)
OK, what seems at least as important as the position of the ring gear and its cam is the position of the cam on the spring shaft. I've had some almost successes getting this all fitted together but either the second curtain fails to close or the ring gear runs past its place. I'm not sure the gears aren't out of mesh as one of the problems I have experienced is the end of the spring comes out of the shaft (there's not much to hold it in place). So I expect there's one problem that's outside the scope of these instructions ;-)
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wolves3012
Mentor
Coincidentally I've just had the exact same thing happen on a Zorki 3M, which has an identical mechanism! Here's how you set it up:
First, pop the spring off its post so there's no tension at all. Next, take a look at the cam. Turn the gears until the point of the cam is at 1 O'clock when the mechanism is held as fitted. Cock the shutter and set 1/60th speed. Fit the mechanism, carefully so as not to move the cam.
Now you need to mark the exact position the pin ought to be - don't worry about where it actually is. Mark the ring (not the gear!) where the top arm of the speed selector is (the aluminium part). The pin is supposed to be JUST contacting this to its right (as you look down on it, camera held lens-mount away from you).
Hold the ring gear still, in case the speed selector tries to move it. Trip the shutter. Now turn the ring gear SLOWLY in its normal direction (clockwise) until the second curtain closes. This establishes the exact point the cam operates. Mark the ring gear against the previous mark then take the mechanism out again.
Now, line up the marks again exactly. The next bit I did by eyeballing but a better way would be to mark the cam-gear and frame somehow. You now have the ability to line up the cam to its exact operating position and you also know where the pin OUGHT to be. The gearing between the ring gear and cam gear doesn't have an even relationship (like 2:1 or 3:1 or such). This means that turning the ring gear clockwise will, eventually, bring the cam-gear marks AND the pin into line with the ring mark. Start turning....
When you reach to correct position, wind two turns (of the ring gear) further and pop the spring back on. Now turn two turns backwards again and refit as per the sticky instructions. Hopefully - job done! If not, you may have to adjust the position again :-(
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paul beard
Member
This is just what I was looking for. Here's what's wrong now :-(
I follow the steps, get the ring marked, trip the shutter, turn the cam, turn it some more, keep turning it, feel some slight resistance as it turns but the second shutter never closes, trip it by hand with small screwdriver, go through it all again, this time the shutter opens and closes @ 1/60th, cock and trip, first shutter opens, turn the cam, keep on, no resistance this time . . . .
It is turning, as I can see it. Is the second shutter lever adjustable? It seems to work sometimes. Is it on a spring that isn't doing it's job? is the cam going over it and missing (can't quite see that well)?
wolves3012
Mentor
Hmm...well it's damned hard to see in there, I agree! Maybe the cam is missing the lever. The lever is on a spring, yes, pushed towards the curtain latch. That's why it always holds the second curtain until the cam pushes it back. That lever isn't adjustable as such. Maybe you have to remove the VF block to see things better. It's a bit extreme but you've come this far...it'd be a shame not to solve it!
Does that lever move freely and is it springing towards the catch (to the right)? I'm guessing it must be, since it's doing the correct job. I can only think that the cam is missing it and passing over the top. Does the cam look flat and square-on to its shaft? Is the whole mechanism sitting properly on its mounting, not mis-aligned and sitting too high?
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paul beard
Member
Perseverance wins again. I think the slow speed assembly was just not sitting in the right place. If I make an effort to make sure it's seated as far forward as it will go, all is good. Shutter curtains open and shut as they should at the fast speeds.
Now to address the end of the cam shaft and how to get the spring back on it. The end of it is making it hard to seat the end of the spring and the spring has uncoiled itself a bit. If it's not one damned thing, it's another . . .
I am trying to hold the end of the spring to the cam shaft with a little JB weld. No idea if it will work or where I will find a suitable spring if I have trashed this one.
Thanks for the detailed replies. Might want to add this procedure to the PDF version.
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paul beard
Member
OK, so any suggestions on what to replace the spring with? It has uncoiled enough and the end of the cam shaft is chewed up enough to make it not re-usable. My favorite purveyor of the otherwise unobtainable and obscure is closed tomorrow so it will have to wait til Monday to see if some other spring can be worked in there.
Advice to novice camera repairers: that spring doesn't need a lot of handling and keenly resents rough handling.
Advice to novice camera repairers: that spring doesn't need a lot of handling and keenly resents rough handling.
wolves3012
Mentor
So how about a small saw-cut to restore the shaft? Or did you mean the cam itself is chewed up? As for the spring - hmm - spring wire but I haven't a clue where to suggest! I think if I dig around I have a spare escapement, I know I did have one!
wolves3012
Mentor
Update: Yes, I have a spare one. Needs a good clean-and-lube but it's a worker. PM me if you want it.
slorenzi
Newbie
Thanks a lot Wolves. It will be very useful for me.
Vince Lupo
Nobody's Mentor
Just got a Zorki 4 off eBay. As expected, the shutter hung up on the slower speeds. I followed your instructions, and managed to take apart the camera, fix it, and get it back together within 2 hours (best of all, no screws left over). Works like a charm now....thanks for this informative thread!
ludoo
Established
I have a beat up Zorki 4 which I'd like to CLA, but what is stopping me is the lack of the proper lubricants, and the huge waste of time required to find some suitable ones around here.
If there's a kind soul who can send me a tiny bottle of each of the lubricants needed, I would much prefer giving money (or trading for some Rollei Retro 100 rolls) to a fellow RFFer than buying huge oil bottles which will stay on a shelf forever.
If there's a kind soul who can send me a tiny bottle of each of the lubricants needed, I would much prefer giving money (or trading for some Rollei Retro 100 rolls) to a fellow RFFer than buying huge oil bottles which will stay on a shelf forever.
Azaroth
Newbie
Thanks for the guide. It helped a lot. I just got a Zorki 4 with shutter problems on the slower speeds. I took it apart, added a little oil and now I'm trying to put it all back together.
The problem is I got stuck on the slow speed mechanism. I managed to wind and fit the mechanism back on, and the cam seems to operate correctly...but the pawl doesn't catch the 2nd curtain pin. It seems to stay too low, and the pin just rolls over it... if i hold it a little higher it works. Did it have a shim or something that I lost?
P.S: I didn't disassemble the speed selector.
The problem is I got stuck on the slow speed mechanism. I managed to wind and fit the mechanism back on, and the cam seems to operate correctly...but the pawl doesn't catch the 2nd curtain pin. It seems to stay too low, and the pin just rolls over it... if i hold it a little higher it works. Did it have a shim or something that I lost?
P.S: I didn't disassemble the speed selector.
wolves3012
Mentor
There aren't normally any shims, no. If it work when sitting a little higher, you could try adding a couple of thin washers or try and bend the cam a fraction to make it engage better.
binlj04
Newbie
it was gr8!! keep it up.
Grytpype
Well-known
Many thanks for the excellent thread, wolves3012. Without it I'd probably be still trying to unscrew the disc on top of the wind spindle the wrong way!
I'm stripping down my own 4k for a full CLA, and got as far as trying to remove the shutter crate from the shell, but then hit a wall. The crate was absolutely solid due to the glue you mention on the light seal string. I took off the shield which covers the curtain tensioners in the hope of getting better leverage, and found that KMZ had been so generous with the glue that it had extruded out between the shell and the crate front-plate over a length of more than an inch.
The only solvent I could find that softens the glue is acetone, and it has taken about 90 minutes of acetone application alternating with leverage with a thin-bladed screwdriver to finally free it up, but not before some over-enthusiastic leverage early on had bent both the shell and the crate front-plate! It will need a bit of serious precision work to check the mount alignment after the crate front-plate is straightened. Fortunately I have the tools.
I don't know if this problem is common, but I thought I had better add it to the thread as a warning. Acetone works eventually but take your time - and lever gently!
Steve.
I'm stripping down my own 4k for a full CLA, and got as far as trying to remove the shutter crate from the shell, but then hit a wall. The crate was absolutely solid due to the glue you mention on the light seal string. I took off the shield which covers the curtain tensioners in the hope of getting better leverage, and found that KMZ had been so generous with the glue that it had extruded out between the shell and the crate front-plate over a length of more than an inch.
The only solvent I could find that softens the glue is acetone, and it has taken about 90 minutes of acetone application alternating with leverage with a thin-bladed screwdriver to finally free it up, but not before some over-enthusiastic leverage early on had bent both the shell and the crate front-plate! It will need a bit of serious precision work to check the mount alignment after the crate front-plate is straightened. Fortunately I have the tools.
I don't know if this problem is common, but I thought I had better add it to the thread as a warning. Acetone works eventually but take your time - and lever gently!
Steve.
wolves3012
Mentor
The one I did came apart easily. I have a spare shell and crate if you want them (the one in some of the pics was the "parts" body). You'd pretty much have to swap everything over though...
Grytpype
Well-known
Thanks for the generous offer. I think I should be OK, but if not I'll certainly let you know. I'm stripping the camera down to a bare shutter-crate, so once I've straightened the front-plate by eye and straight-edge, I'll fit it to the crate and check with a depth micrometer if the distance from the 'mount' to the film-plane is equal at all points and adjust if necessary. At the same time I will check the 'register' with the shims and lens-mount fitted.
I will have at least one question to ask in a day or so, but a bit outside the areas covered in this thread so far (concerning rear baffle plate). I will put it in a new thread rather than make this one too long and unwieldy, unless you think it would be better here.
Steve.
I will have at least one question to ask in a day or so, but a bit outside the areas covered in this thread so far (concerning rear baffle plate). I will put it in a new thread rather than make this one too long and unwieldy, unless you think it would be better here.
Steve.
Green_Blue
Established
I have an issue with my zorki 4 winder, sometimes when I wind it feels as if it doesn't catch and it takes quite a few winds to get friction again. I have noticed that this occurs predominately after I try to set the film counter. What specific area should I look at if I try to CLA the camera?
wolves3012
Mentor
Firstly, check your technique setting the counter. Either hold the winder knob firmly or cock the shutter before setting the counter. Having said that, the counter isn't linked to anything, mechanically, except being friction-coupled to the winder knob.
Generally, you set the counter after loading film and you'll have most likely re-wound a film before that (stating the obvious). Therefore, is the camera going back into "advance" properly? If it's not, I'd look at the bit about flushing out the dog-clutch inside the sprocket and adding some oil (check out the precautions too, it'll run out of the bottom of the sprocket area).
Hope that helps!